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Topic: 24v Not starting after being left for a week (Read 1214 times) |
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Dave
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Tourmallard 24v (ex-owner)
 
Posts: 1984
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24v Not starting after being left for a week
« on: Sep 10th, 2005, 10:05pm » |
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Hi all,
just been away for a week, left the Scorp at home parked on the drive. I took it for a run on Saturday morning last week, started and ran fine.
Got back today mid-afternoon and decided to go for a drive only to find the car would not start. It was turning over slowly so we tried to jump start it - no joy. Charged the battery for 5 hours - no joy.
Checked fuel pump fuses and relay - doesn't look to be anything wrong. Tried red key, spare key, checked PATS light - nothing appears wrong!  Battery voltage was measured at 12.2 volts using a multimeter after 5 hours on charge and 3 starting attempts. Faint smell of fuel at the exhaust when cranking so don't want to kill the cats by trying too many times.
In short, dont understand this at all. It turns over happily but shows absolutely no interest in starting. All relevant battery/fuse covers are in place and it has never failed to start since I bought it.
Have been through the excellent fault finding page and will check through when it is daylight but would appreciate any thoughts.
Thanks all 
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Highlander
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Expert
13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
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Re: 24v Not starting after being left for a week
« Reply #1 on: Sep 10th, 2005, 11:33pm » |
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If its turning over sounds like either fuel or ignition.
Is there petrol in it? (ive done this myself with the gauge showing half full)
Fuel cut off valve activated?
Fuel getting through to pump ok?
getting a spark at the plugs?
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Eric_R
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Cosworth Owner 1998 - 2006 & site co-founder
Posts: 1792
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Re: 24v Not starting after being left for a week
« Reply #2 on: Sep 11th, 2005, 1:06am » |
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Dave,
I wonder if the battery has dropped a bit low and the modules have gone out of synch. Try disconnecting the battery and reconnecting after a minute - you'll need your radio code but we can tell you what it is if you haven't. Make sure you have all leads connected and then try starting it again. 
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Dave
Senior Member
Tourmallard 24v (ex-owner)
Posts: 1984
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Re: 24v Not starting after being left for a week
« Reply #3 on: Sep 11th, 2005, 4:32pm » |
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Hi Guys,
thanks for the responses
OK, battery has now been charged for 5 hours on a high charge and about 15 hours on a low charge. Shows 12.7 volts with a multimeter under no load, dials flicking as soon as ignition is switched on. All fuses look fine, relays do not appear burnt etc.
Tried disconnecting battery for just over a minute but still no joy. Starter motor turns over nice and fast but no effort is made to start. Dials still flicking even after all that charging - starting to think the battery may have died. Could this produce these symptoms? Surely it would just not turn over?
Has about 3/4 of a tank of petrol, filled up just before we went away and it doesn't appear to have leaked out. Fuel cut off switch appears ok.
Have not checked any further with the fuel/sparking for 2 reasons:
1) not sure how to 
2) can't understand what could have gone wrong when it wasn't even touched!
How can I test the relays? I would like to check the fuel pump one, can I substitute it with another?
Confused 
Cheers
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scorpio_man
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Ford Kuga awd
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Re: 24v Not starting after being left for a week
« Reply #4 on: Sep 11th, 2005, 5:27pm » |
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hi dave
can you not try a replacement battery first? as eric has said, if the voltage drops too far, modules will shut down. it will turn over, but never start.
hth
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Dave
Senior Member
Tourmallard 24v (ex-owner)
Posts: 1984
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Re: 24v Not starting after being left for a week
« Reply #5 on: Sep 12th, 2005, 2:00pm » |
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Hi all,
Firstly, many thanks to all of your suggestions. We reckon Eric was on to the case.. got a new battery today and slotted it in. It started the car immediately... it ran near perfectly for four minutes and then very simply conked out, and now won't start again.
The new battery was registering 12.3 volts, a little low obviously, but it must have maintained its voltage enough to start the car first time.
Should I charge the battery now, or should I look for another fault? The voltage is now registering 12.29.
Thanks again,
Dave
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David_South_West
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24V............ .Goodness
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Re: 24v Not starting after being left for a week
« Reply #6 on: Sep 12th, 2005, 3:04pm » |
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I would suggest charging new battery and trying again...if you can start check alternator is charging .If not check fuse boxes are dry. Good luck
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Dave
Senior Member
Tourmallard 24v (ex-owner)
Posts: 1984
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Re: 24v Not starting after being left for a week
« Reply #7 on: Sep 12th, 2005, 4:14pm » |
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Thanks David. New battery on charge as we speak, has been for 2 hours now and is still drawing a fair current! Will leave it for a while before trying again.
Will let you know how it goes. Many thanks again for the help 
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Dave
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Tourmallard 24v (ex-owner)
Posts: 1984
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Re: 24v Not starting after being left for a week
« Reply #8 on: Sep 12th, 2005, 8:35pm » |
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Right gentlemen,
the sage continues
Charged the battery some more today, disconnected completely for 10 mins before reconnecting. Car started first time. Kept some revs on for a few mins around the previous "stall period" and it ran happily for 20 minutes (but needles still flicked which is a bit odd at the batt was at about 12.7 volts according to the multimeter). Revved up fine, idled fine, no funny noises etc.
Just when I was about to put my tools away it died again, just like someone had switched it off (they hadn't) without any spluttering etc. Then would not restart!!
Have disconnected the battery for another 10 mins, about to reconnect and see what happens....... 
No, it won't start 
Right, I have 3 observations now:
1) fault developed while standing (it would appear)
2) dials still flicking although battery shows 12.8-12.8v
3) car stalled after being allowed to idle for roughly the same period!
i.e 1st time we got it going we just left it running. Stalled after approx 4 minutes.
2nd time I kept giving it a little rev every so often, then it stalled when I thought it was sorted, again after about 4 minutes idling.
Any ideas on where to go from here would be very much appreciated
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Eric_R
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Cosworth Owner 1998 - 2006 & site co-founder
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Re: 24v Not starting after being left for a week
« Reply #9 on: Sep 12th, 2005, 8:42pm » |
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Dave,
When you get the engine running again, check the battery voltage as it runs with a digital voltmeter. It should be at 14.3 approx for a while as it refreshes the battery from the starter, then should fall gradually to 13-13.6 or thereabouts. The flicking needles are a classic symptom of the system voltage dropping too low - the instrument modules are resetting on startup and only do this if the battery is disconnected or the system drops below 12v.
If the battery shows less than 12v at any stage then the alternator is not charging properly - and may even be drawing current from the battery - flattening it very quickly. Some of the modules and relays can start to switch out as low as 11v - so if you see that there's your problem.
At this stage it could have been the old battery or the alternator. Our Pb batteries do fail very suddenly - literally overnight. But it worries me that the new battery failed after 4 minutes - was it an actually new battery or just a replacement? If it was new there should have been no problem - I think the diode pack may have failed in the alternator and is drawing a current from the battery instead of putting one in.
Other possibilities is the fuel relay cutting out - or the fuel cutoff switch in the boot - but they only need looking at if the battery charge voltage is healthy when the engine is running.
HTH
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Dave
Senior Member
Tourmallard 24v (ex-owner)
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Re: 24v Not starting after being left for a week
« Reply #10 on: Sep 12th, 2005, 8:49pm » |
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Hi Eric,
thanks for the fast response. I was just about to edit my post to include the charging info
Anyway, when it was running I measured 14 volts across the battery terminals. When it dies the starter span nice and fast as I tried to get it going. Central locking turned fine, windows went nice and quickly etc
After the car died again I measured the battery as 12.8 volts.
I did wonder about the fuel relay early on but as the battery was obviously past its best there seemd little point in not trying that first as suggested! The battery is a brand new Varta, bought today and given a few hours on the charger to make sure it was ok.
Thanks for the advice
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Eric_R
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Re: 24v Not starting after being left for a week
« Reply #11 on: Sep 12th, 2005, 8:55pm » |
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Dave,
Can you monitor the volts across the terminals of the battery as the engine idles? Once the engine is stopped the battery will recover slightly and we won't know what the voltage was when the engine died. If the voltage remains above 12 volts all the time then it's unlikely to be a module resetting and the problem isn't voltage related. BTW - make absolutely sure you haven't left any of the smaller leads off of the battery positive terminal - it's easy to do.
We would then be looking at a fault with the fuel pump relay, a PATS problem (does the PATS LED on top of the dash flash a code at all?) or the fuel cut-off switch in the boot - those have been known to cause erratic starting problems.
Good luck.
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howiedintheplace
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Based near Evesham
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Re: 24v Not starting after being left for a week
« Reply #12 on: Sep 12th, 2005, 8:55pm » |
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Eric beat me to it.
Yeap you need to check out what he said.
You should have over 13.3 volts when running.
Have you connected all the wires back on to the battery?
Does the engine try to start & does it turn over at normal speed when on the starter?
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Dave
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howiedintheplace
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Based near Evesham
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Re: 24v Not starting after being left for a week
« Reply #13 on: Sep 12th, 2005, 9:09pm » |
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Also as said before.
Check that rain has not got into the fuse boxes as it can cause all kinds of strange things, like dancing dials & a dead car?
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Dave
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David_South_West
Full Member
24V............ .Goodness
Posts: 188
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Re: 24v Not starting after being left for a week
« Reply #14 on: Sep 12th, 2005, 10:40pm » |
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I remember having a similar problem with me old granada..it would suddenly die .Pushed the button in and out on the fuel cut off switch and it was never a problem again.may have been coincidence but worth a try.Or try bypassing switch.it could be a resistance problem on switch contacts.
Are you getting spark at plugs when it won't start ?
Are all earth contacts clean?
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Eric_R
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Re: 24v Not starting after being left for a week
« Reply #15 on: Sep 12th, 2005, 10:49pm » |
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Dave,
Howied has a good point. There might have been some heavy rain in your area recently. Do you have the battery cover fitted, and are the drainholes clear?
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/drainholes.htm
If the fuse boxes are sitting in an inch of water it can cause problems with the internal mylar strips - once wet they start to corrode and cause problems, some of them very odd. If the main fuse and the auxillary boxes are bone dry then this will not be an issue.
Has the battery run flat again? The starter turning happily is not an indicator of battery state on the Scorpio - it is reduction-geared to reduce the load on the battery. It will turn quite happily, but is drawing enough current to lower the voltage to the relays and modules, which then start turning off or opening circuit. Check the state of the battery now with the charger - does it draw heavily on the charger? Has the battery been flattened again? If it has then suspect the alternator diode pack - it may be grounding the battery while the engine is running.
At the point when the engine has stalled and you try to restart it, is the PATS led on the top of the dash flashing a code? http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pats
If the voltage driving the PATS module drops too low then it will reset and kill the engine - and it will remain inert until powered up properly in sequence, which is why you have to disconnect the battery again.
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Dave
Senior Member
Tourmallard 24v (ex-owner)
Posts: 1984
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Re: 24v Not starting after being left for a week
« Reply #16 on: Sep 13th, 2005, 1:20pm » |
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Chaps,
many thanks for all the input.
Armed with all suggestions I went out again this morning for a go. Before trying to start it I had a look at the fuel pump relay, cleaned it a little bit, then put it back. Tested the battery at 12.8 volts. Checked both fuse boxes - bone dry. Also checked drain holes yesterday and they seemed fine. Did have to waxoyl battery tray though!
Now came the attempt to start, but not before I watched the PATS light carefully - no faults shown. Then, amazingly, it started immediately!
I was expecting it to die if left idling for a few minutes, as previously described, so kept prodding the accelerator every so often while checking voltages.
In the end I had it running for 40 mins, voltage never fell below 13.3 even when I had the a/c on, windows going, all lights and heated screens on at the same time. Was steady at 13.92v on idle, rising to 14.2v when giving it about 1500-2000rpm.
During this time I decided to turn it off then try to restart. Amazingly it started first time, every time (turned it off about 4 times).
Now came the real test. Having run for 40 mins I decided to leave it idling on its own, fully expecting it to die in the standard 4 mins. But it didn't!
So, I left it for about 35 minutes to cool down, then tried again. Started up first go! Took the bull by the horns and took it for a quick run of a couple of miles, behaved perfectly! We popped in on our local friendly motor factor to see if we could get a new fuel pump relay anyway (and he wanted to see the car ) and he thought the relay in the car was too hot to the touch, signalling some sort of malfunction.
Anyway, due to pick up a new fuel pump relay from Fords this afternoon for about £16, touch wood, cross finger/toes etc that this will sort it properly!
Hopefully this relay is the culprit *touches wood* but just wanted to say thanks to everyone that has helped out with suggestions, that is what makes this site what it is
Watch this space, just in case
Cheers all
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howiedintheplace
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Based near Evesham
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Re: 24v Not starting after being left for a week
« Reply #17 on: Sep 13th, 2005, 7:16pm » |
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Well done. Glad your up & running again.
Could well be a bad contact on that relay or indeed the relay on it's last legs. So good idea to replace, espically if it's getting hot.
I reckon you just saved yourself about £150 based on what I think your friendly Ford dealer would have charged to sort it out. 
It is hard to fix a car over the internet as it could have been so many things & we rely on you to be our ears & eyes to get to the problem.
Good luck.
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Dave
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Dave
Senior Member
Tourmallard 24v (ex-owner)
Posts: 1984
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Re: 24v Not starting after being left for a week
« Reply #18 on: Sep 14th, 2005, 9:24am » |
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Cheers Dave! Was seriously concerned at the prospect of having to get it transported to Ford Would probably have to have been sold to pay for the bill
I think it may have been a bit easier to sort were it not for that battery, it has been a bit frail for a while so had to be replaced before winter anyway. Seems to start more easily with it anyway!
Thanks again to all
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Dave
Senior Member
Tourmallard 24v (ex-owner)
Posts: 1984
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Re: 24v Not starting after being left for a week
« Reply #19 on: Oct 2nd, 2005, 4:04pm » |
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Oh dear. Groundhog day
Chaps, I need your assistance again.
I went out to the car on Saturday aft to go to the tip. Was raining, car had been stood since Monday evening, had been raining all week, all covers in place. Once again the thing turned over fine but won't fire, not even a hint of interest. Tried again today, same thing. All fuses/relays/cut off switch/battery appear fine. Not even flicking dials until tried starting it a few times.
Just to recap it has now had a new fuel pump relay, new battery, all covers in place and batt/fuse boxes are dry.
Since the last tantrum it has been running just fine.
Please help! (again)
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