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Topic: Main Dealers SERVICE (Read 1386 times) |
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johnv
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Can anyone tell me, when you pay £180 plus vat for a major full service, why are the wheel hub bearings not greased and what about the drive shaft bearings.
Is it a case that you pay you £30,000, and drive your scorpio out the showroom. You then just drive it and drive it, until your bearings smash and damage your hub. or should these be greased at some point.
In the old days the rear where lubricated by the rear axle oil and the front ones you took out the bearing and greese it and put it back. A 10 minute job each wheel.
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wumpster
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Re: Main Dealers SERVICE
« Reply #1 on: Dec 17th, 2004, 12:47am » |
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i used to work for a main dealer and the answer is that manufacturers say that the bearings are greased from the factory for there life time due to how good modern lubes are this is why there are no grease niples on modern cars 
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waders
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If Ford put any grease in at manufacture I'd be surprised  .
When I inspected a failed rear bearing from my Scorp, it was, and obviously had always been, dryer than a dry thing at a dryness convention 
The bearings, when new come with just enough lube to inhibit corrosion and should be packed with grease when fitted 
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mr._floppy
Junior Member
Posts: 100
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Re: Main Dealers SERVICE
« Reply #3 on: Dec 17th, 2004, 3:30pm » |
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In the old days , you could repack wheel bearings quite easily just replacing the split pin when reassembling.
However most bearings these days are sealed for life, and when they do go, it requires complete replacement.
Plus, the big nut requires some hefty torque to undo ( 200 lb/ft) Phew!
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waders
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on Dec 17th, 2004, 3:30pm, mr._floppy wrote:| In the old days , you could repack wheel bearings |
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In the old days, I'm only 37 
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johnv
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I can understand what Wumpster saying. but I think it might be OK for trackrod ends. (buts its not). but I mean wheel bearings and drive shaft bearings, that another story. They can't be greased for Life. How long is Life?
And what Waders saying about they need packing with grease upon in-stalling, that's scary. I mean how would we know if they had done this or not.
I mean when the Ford Main dealer in Coventry was fined £4000 plus £1700 costs for charging for a full service and not doing a lot of the work. some of the non done work was £60 + vat for changing the brake fluid and not doing so. and not greasing door and boot linkages. So if they can't be bothered to put a bit of grease on the easy bits like that, would they take the trouble to grease bearings. Hey Mr-Floppy you will know, are the service personel paid like double glazing contractors, like the more they do or should I say pretend to do the more they get paid.
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mr._floppy
Junior Member
Posts: 100
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Re: Main Dealers SERVICE
« Reply #6 on: Dec 17th, 2004, 6:30pm » |
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I'm pretty sure that, even if bearings and drive shafts
were routinely greased , they would still fail, components don't last forever. As for dealers , apart from doing all servicing yourself, you just have to trust that all the work you are paying them for , has been done.
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Eric_R
Administrator
Cosworth Owner 1998 - 2006 & site co-founder
Posts: 1792
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Re: Main Dealers SERVICE
« Reply #7 on: Dec 27th, 2004, 7:50pm » |
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JohnV,
The drive shafts, nor the bearings nor even the prop shaft, nor any of the suspension mountings have grease nipples nowadays. This was old technology, and the latest vehicle, like everything else nowadays, have advanced into more precision and better design.
Greasing routines were only there to prolong the life of components made to last a maximum of 100,000 miles.
Modern cars do that sort of mileage easily, and then some, and the increased demand for speed, safety and reliability has meant that bearing surfaces are machined to much tighter tolerances using much better quality steel and we now have much more advanced greases and lubricants.
Our rear hub bearings also have a pre-float as part of its design so these are literally sealed-for-life. What is it's life? Well on the Granada at least twice round the clock, and with my current Scorpio Cosworth, 116K miles without any problems so far.
Surely you're not suggesting that cars should not be developed and improved over the years?
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After a Cosworth, anything else is just ... ordinary
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Geoff_W
Senior Member
98 Ulti2.5tdi Auto
Posts: 1340
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Re: Main Dealers SERVICE
« Reply #8 on: Dec 27th, 2004, 10:27pm » |
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Backing Eric on this one, cars have been getting better, they typically are more reliable, the technologies are improving, we have problems with our Scorpios and they can be major but generally when fettled they run dramatically better than pre1986 vehicles.
That seems to be the point where grief was a routine part of motoring. Either because your whatever rotted away in front of your eyes or a major component failed limiting most vehicles to a life sub 100,000 miles.
In a previous life with a Manufacturer we reached a point where the operating life of components and the mean time before failure (MTBF) showed that it would become possible to leave 18 to 20k or up to 24 months in between services.
Lubricants improving, engine management systems changing the running settings as time went by.
A number of vehicles were run on the extended cycles without problem. However it became apparent that there were variables including quality of routine maintenance and driving style that were directly linked to safety (brakes for one thing) which needed a more regular set of checks.
I guess going back to previous themes those of us who do not have our own garage facilities need to track down as many good, straight forward and technologically capable mechanics and service garages as possible and publicise them on this site.
So if you have got a gem servicing your car tell us about them and every one can win.
Sorry about this turning into a rant, hopefully my last for 2004.
Roll on 2005 Happy New Year
Geoff
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The winding road goes on and on... or at least it does in Northumberland
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johnv
Guest
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Re: Main Dealers SERVICE
« Reply #9 on: Dec 28th, 2004, 11:33am » |
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I read what is being said, but that is not happening.
What's all this about 100,000 miles.
The main shaft bearings fail at about 50,000 miles. My Ford Dealer one of the better good guys says he had then in for replacement bearings at 35,000 miles. The first bearings to go are on the N/S because cars spent more time going to the left than to the right.
Wheel hub bearing do last longer than drive shaft bearings.
Steel brake discs need replacing at 30,000 miles on some cars.
In the old days I had two Vaxhall Crestas, 3,300 cc six cylinders in line they went and went all the time. just tyres and exchaust that needs replacements.
The same on other cars.
No one going to convince me that modern cars are an inprovement.
Yes the might go faster, but look at the cost of service and repairs of todays cars.
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mr._floppy
Junior Member
Posts: 100
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Re: Main Dealers SERVICE
« Reply #10 on: Dec 28th, 2004, 2:48pm » |
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I'm old enough to remember in the 70's when a Mk 3 Cortina's body was a rust nightmare after only 6 years . The engine was broken, and consuming gallons of oil after only 70k.
No, these days it's normal for a 10 year old car to be structurally rust-free ( well, Volvos and Audis ) and for the engine to still have plenty of puff after 100K.
The modern car's only downside is the complicated engine management systems which are not DIY friendly nor is fault finding as basic or easy as it used to be.
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Paul B
Senior Member
'98 24V Ultima saloon
Posts: 2442
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Re: Main Dealers SERVICE
« Reply #11 on: Dec 28th, 2004, 4:15pm » |
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on Dec 28th, 2004, 2:48pm, mr._floppy wrote:| The modern car's only downside is the complicated engine management systems which are not DIY friendly nor is fault finding as basic or easy as it used to be. |
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Exactly.
Old cars like the Mk3 'tina were DIY friendly and can be diagnosed & fixed without too many headaches.
Let's be honest about it, the Scorpio is fantastic... until it goes wrong - then its a bloody nightmare!
My other car....
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Two hundred & seven horses and only one jockey!
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mr._floppy
Junior Member
Posts: 100
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Re: Main Dealers SERVICE
« Reply #12 on: Dec 28th, 2004, 4:26pm » |
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How old is that picture ?
I'll bet that MK 3 is now a large pile of Ferric
Oxide.
I had a 1976 gold 2lt with a Vinyl Roof ( now there is a fashion that should return, what purpose did it serve ? )
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Paul B
Senior Member
'98 24V Ultima saloon
Posts: 2442
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Re: Main Dealers SERVICE
« Reply #13 on: Dec 28th, 2004, 4:43pm » |
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No. You just lost your bet Mr.Floppy.
It still looks like that today.
This is the most recent picture I have available....
(might do some fresh ones tomorrow)
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Two hundred & seven horses and only one jockey!
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Geoff_W
Senior Member
98 Ulti2.5tdi Auto
Posts: 1340
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Re: Main Dealers SERVICE
« Reply #14 on: Dec 29th, 2004, 11:21am » |
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Cor Paul thats a beauty.
Paintwork looks spotless, is it a rebuild or the original vicars car?
Looks like a Mk3 GT spec, love the sport steel wheels big headlights and spots.
Is it a 1600 or 2 litre pinto ?
Geoff
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The winding road goes on and on... or at least it does in Northumberland
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Paul B
Senior Member
'98 24V Ultima saloon
Posts: 2442
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Re: Main Dealers SERVICE
« Reply #15 on: Dec 29th, 2004, 2:19pm » |
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Hi Geoff. And thanks for the kind comments 
Your're right, it's a 2.0GT (1973).
Not original Vicar's car I'm afraid, but a rebuild.
I bought it in November '91 and spent evenings & weekends on it until summer '95 when it was completed.
I say completed, but there are still 1 or 2 small things still to do on it... if I can find the bits!
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Two hundred & seven horses and only one jockey!
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nadaman
Junior Member
mk2 granada 2.8i sport auto
Posts: 78
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Re: Main Dealers SERVICE
« Reply #16 on: Dec 29th, 2004, 2:34pm » |
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thats a nice car i remember my dads 4 door one in white when i was about 6 years old.
paul
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wash that granada, he doesn't want to get the lorr
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Eric_R
Administrator
Cosworth Owner 1998 - 2006 & site co-founder
Posts: 1792
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Re: Main Dealers SERVICE
« Reply #17 on: Dec 29th, 2004, 7:34pm » |
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QUOTE: I read what is being said, but that is not happening.
What's all this about 100,000 miles.
The main shaft bearings fail at about 50,000 miles. My Ford Dealer one of the better good guys says he had then in for replacement bearings at 35,000 miles. The first bearings to go are on the N/S because cars spent more time going to the left than to the right.
Wheel hub bearing do last longer than drive shaft bearings.
Steel brake discs need replacing at 30,000 miles on some cars. END QUOTE
No, quite simply, no - this is nonsense. Look at my sevice costs page - for a car that does hard miles with a full load on: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/servicenew.htm - and this is not for a little runaround but a 3 litre 24V estate that can cruise at 140 mph.
I had four previous Granadas that went round the clock (probably twice) and no trouble with hubs bearings - but I did change the drive shaft CVs to quiet the transmission - the Granadas were very well favoured by the Trade because they were so easy to 'clock' so goodness knows what actual mileage they had done before I bought them.
The CV joints on my Scorpio have no discernable wear at all - at 116K miles. On my last service there was no discernable wear on the prop shaft or centre bearing at all.
Brake disks currently wear through much quicker because of harder brake pads material (non asbestos, etc) and are designed to last 12 months between services, unlike the cars of the 60s and the 70s, where service intervals could have been as low as 3 months. Have you forgotten the endless tinkering with the CB points, and playing with the timing light and setting dwell angle and trying to measure valve gaps on worn push-rods? This lasted a month before it all started wearing again ... and if the little condenser failed the car wouldn't start at all.
I fundamentally disagree with you, John. Running my old Cortinas meant working on at least something almost every weekend - whereas apart from servicing and tyre pressures I don't have anything to do on my Cosworth - and it gets to 100 before the old Cortina even got to 40.
I mention on my service history that my car passed the last MOT without even a change of air filter, let alone plugs, because I hadn't time to do the service beforehand - and the current MOT with emissions checks are far more stringent than anything than the old Cortina had to face.
And I well remember watching the body on my MkI Cortina dissolve in the rain even as I watched  - Zeibarting was extra then and the wings were bare metal over cross-ply tyres ...
I should change your Main Dealer, John - I have never heard of any Scorpio (or Granada) where any bearings had failed after only 35K miles - and I'm sure we would have heard about it by now.
Beautiful Cortina though - well done.
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