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Topic: Religion (Read 2539 times) |
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Jonnycab
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Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
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Although not a subscriber or member, I do tend to swing toward the Scientology theory that humans came from outer space.
How come we are so much more intelligent than any other life on this planet. Apes & Dolphins are clever, but they are hundreds of thousands of years of evolution behind the human race.
Not even the dinosaurs, that lived on this planet for 185 millions years could evolve to such a point where they could build houses & motorways etc.
We've only be been here for what?...150,000 years in a kind of human form, & in the form we are now...for about 15,000 years?
Since about 5000 BC we all worshipped different gods & then all of a sudden 2000 years ago Jesus arrived (supposedly on Christmas day...very convenient!).
Since then the human race slowly progressed (even though it had progressed before with the Egyptians & South American Incas etc).
Sure..gun powder was invented by the chinese...which led to guns etc.
But it wasn't until the 20th century (and possible alien intervention) that man became really intelligent.
In the space of a hundred years we've gone from horse drawn carriages to computer chips the size of a pinhead.
Is that rapid evolution or what?..... or have we been helped? 
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Daven
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Re: Religion
« Reply #1 on: Jul 19th, 2006, 8:12am » |
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See where you are coming from, and when you look at how many 'suns' there are the chances of another life supporting planet must be great but it must also be a case of when and where.
As for the rapid progression - I'm not so sure. Computers have 'evolved' since 1834 - only improving as each of the component technology has improved or when tools or processes to manufacture the components have improved.
That itself can be self-perpetuating as the computer/robotics improve they can carry out tasks humans are incapable of and therefore make better and smaller components. (well apart from Fiat  )
As for humans being more intelligent (mmm debatable ) - a case of natural selection - humans were more prolific than Apes - but give them another 15000 years without the intervention of humankind and who knows.
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DJWerkz
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on Jul 19th, 2006, 3:27am, jonnycab wrote:
How come we are so much more intelligent than any other life on this planet. Apes & Dolphins are clever, but they are hundreds of thousands of years of evolution behind the human race.
Not even the dinosaurs, that lived on this planet for 185 millions years could evolve to such a point where they could build houses & motorways etc. |
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“What distinguishes the human brain,” a scientist said, “is the variety of more specialized activities it is capable of learning.” Computer science uses the term “hardwired” to refer to built-in characteristics based on fixed circuitry, in contrast to functions put into a computer by a programmer. “Applied to human beings,” one authority writes, “hard wiring refers to innate abilities or, at least, predispositions.” In people there are many built-in capacities for learning, but not the learning itself. Animals, by contrast, have hardwired instinctive wisdom, but limited capacities to learn new things.
The Universe Within notes that the most intelligent animal “never develops a mind like that of a human being. For it lacks what we have: preprogramming of our neural equipment that enables us to form concepts out of what we see, language out of what we hear, and thoughts out of our experiences.” But we must, by input from our surroundings, program the brain, otherwise, as the book states, “nothing resembling the human mind would develop . . . Without that immense infusion of experience, scarcely a trace of intellect would appear.” So the capability that is built into the human brain enables us to construct the human intellect. And, unlike animals, we have the free will to program our intellects as we choose, based on our own knowledge, values, opportunities and goals.
on Jul 19th, 2006, 3:27am, jonnycab wrote:| We've only be been here for what?...150,000 years in a kind of human form, & in the form we are now...for about 15,000 years? |
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I personally believe the Bible's record of man only being on the earth for a little over 6000 years, this is smething that is supported by the British Museum in London too where the earth's timeline is charted and anything previous to 6000 years is marked with a '?'.
on Jul 19th, 2006, 3:27am, jonnycab wrote:| Since about 5000 BC we all worshipped different gods & then all of a sudden 2000 years ago Jesus arrived (supposedly on Christmas day...very convenient!). |
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Christmas day actually has nothing to do with Christ's birth. Quoting on World history the book 'On the Road to Civilization', page 164: “The feast of Saturn, the Saturnalia, was a winter festival which lasted a week beginning on the twenty-fifth day of December, and was celebrated with dancing, the exchanging of gifts, and the burning of candles. The Saturnalia was later taken over by the Christians as their Christmas, and given a new significance.” (More detailed research will also prove that the Xmas celebrations were of Pagan origin and date back to Nimrod after he married his own mother).
Jesus was born in the month of Ethanim (September-October) of the year 2 B.C.E. One key fact that proves this is the shepherds still being in the fields, if Jesus was born in December, even in Israel the shepherds would not have been in the fields.
on Jul 19th, 2006, 3:27am, jonnycab wrote:Since then the human race slowly progressed (even though it had progressed before with the Egyptians & South American Incas etc).
Sure..gun powder was invented by the chinese...which led to guns etc.
But it wasn't until the 20th century (and possible alien intervention) that man became really intelligent.
In the space of a hundred years we've gone from horse drawn carriages to computer chips the size of a pinhead.
Is that rapid evolution or what?..... or have we been helped? |
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Man has indeed learned many things over a short space of time but even though we have great technological advances this kind of blinds people to how really we are worse off than we have ever been in terms of human health, World disasters, polution (this list would be extensive).
Of course, I'm not trying to put anyone's belief's down here, just adding my own knowledge/understanding based upon my own Bible education and studies.
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Spannerdemon
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I don't believe in Religion. I make no apology for that or secret about it. Too much has happened in my short time on this planet for me to accept it.
I often wonder just how clever we actually are? A question that I ask people in conversation is this. If you were the only 'intelligent' human being left on the planet, and you came across a group of people who knew literally nothing at all, what exactly could you teach them to help them survive, and to build a new beginning?
I wonder how many of us could make the following items from scratch, and this is just a random selection, there are thousands of other examples.
Steel, Plastic, Paper, Rubber, Fire, Cut stone, Mill wheat to make flour...................
These are all things that we take for granted, but I doubt that many of us could even begin to know how they are made or how to actually begin to make them ourselves.
I think we'd soon revert to an almost 'cave man' existence. Hunting animals with bows and arrows, and living in caves.
We are clever as a race, but individually, we are probably not too bright when it comes down to it.
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Jonnycab
Senior Member
Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
Posts: 3900
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Re: Religion
« Reply #4 on: Jul 20th, 2006, 2:56am » |
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Some good theories & opinions.
Daven, you wrote that humans were more prolific than apes, but aren't humans supposedly descended from apes? What happened along the evolutionary highway that split the two. My theory (as mad as it would seem, but not mine alone) is that there was an inter-breeding scheme set up to mix ape DNA with a more intelligent DNA taken from.....I hate to say it, but yes.....Aliens
It's not as fruitcake as it sounds when you think about modern day cloning techniques. You dread to think what kind of monstrosities they have created after mixing different kinds of DNA. And that are now, still pickled in large glass jars somewhere in some top secret laboratory.
Besides, we are far from being the most prolific species on this planet by a long shot 
DJWerkz.... good stuff, but can you honestly believe that humans didn't exist until 6000 years ago. What about Neanderthal & Neolithic man?
Even though they weren't exactly what you would call human, they walked on two legs, knew how to hunt with weapons they made from flint etc, & wore animal skins as clothing. Sounds kind of human to me
Spanners....I think you are right.
The average person only lives the way they do because of what they've got. Religion, science & technology dictates this. Take it all away & it's a 'lost on a desert island' scenario.
But after a while, because you are the most intelligent life on the planet then you will learn how to survive very quickly by what you already know & with the animal instinct that you already have. One thing that humans have that animals don't is the ability to rationalise & be logical 
Anyway....must go back to my nice white room now 
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DJWerkz
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on Jul 20th, 2006, 2:56am, jonnycab wrote:
DJWerkz.... good stuff, but can you honestly believe that humans didn't exist until 6000 years ago. What about Neanderthal & Neolithic man?
Even though they weren't exactly what you would call human, they walked on two legs, knew how to hunt with weapons they made from flint etc, & wore animal skins as clothing. Sounds kind of human to me
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Best thing I would suggest is first go to the British Museum yourself if you have not been already and look at how much of the so-called 'evidence' supporting man's development from apes is real.
Of course, it does come down to what you believe in, either the creation or evolution theory. But then either way whatever form of belief you choose to follow you are technically following a 'religion' as part of the definition of the word religion is to follow a form of belief.
Religion has been one of the most damaging man made things on this earth in the history of human development, but that's because for the most part they choose to ignore God's standards laid down in his word the Bible and introduce their own ideas. Look at the history of the Israelites, they had God's blessing but repeatedly disobeyed his laws and reaped the consequences. The Jews were saying they were looking for the promised Messiah but when Jesus came to the earth they demanded his life and got his executed.
Of course, you mention these things now in the wrong circles and you get the 'denial' factor 
God's only recommendation is that we read and follow his word the Bible and test out for ourselves whether this is truth or not. However after this if we choose to follow it there comes acceptance of responsibility to live our lives in harmony with that truth,...something most religions do not even though they say they accept it.
OK, sorry for rambling, have a good day everyone.
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sector-9
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No scorpio anymore
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Re: Religion
« Reply #6 on: Jul 20th, 2006, 10:12pm » |
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Regarding human intelligence (or not), how do you define intelligence?
To me personally, it's not the amount of knowledge otherwise computers and libraries would be considered more intelligent than humans; it's the application of knowledge which demonstrates intelligence. Confused?
You can program a robot to fill a sink to the correct level with water, and it will do it perfectly every time, but if one day there was a hole in the sink the robot would still try to fill it to the preset level. Even a child knows that if there is a hole in the sink it won't fill up so he won't attempt to try. This is because at some point earlier in the child's life they were told (or found) that you cannot fill something up if it has a leak - it doesn't matter whether that incident referred to a sink specifically, the child applies the same logic to the sink as to the previous object. A robot may have been taught that it must check for leaks in a bucket before filling it, but it won't automatically apply the same rule to the sink simply because it treats the sink as a totally separate object to a bucket, even though to us they both perform the same function as a container for liquid!
The human brain (disgregarding basic life functions) is essentially a comparator with a huge memory store. Nearly everything you consciously do is a result of your brain referring to a past experience and comparing it with current sensor data before choosing how to respond. Ever made a joke at a party and put your foot in it? Your brain will know not to do that again in those circumstances! Same for when you were young and grabbed hold of something hot. Of course, even animals learn from their experiences, but like the robot, they don't reason that if a kettle is hot then the mug of coffee is likely to be too. We do because we see the steam coming from the kettle, and also from the mug so because we associate steam with hot water we know that even though the mug doesn't look like a kettle we must be careful.
Daven is right; there have been many ideas put forth for centuries which were sound but the technology of the time couldn't produce. The computer itself is a very old idea but until electricity came along it was impractical to build. Even with electricity the very first ones took several rooms and had no more power than a pound shop calculator today. As we discovered semiconductors we were able to make smaller and faster computers - but the basic principles had existed far earlier. The same is true of flight; man has long known how it is that birds fly but the technology of the time was too crude to make it possible. The Wright brothers had to make their own engine to power their aircraft as the existing ones were all too heavy.
On a different topic, the Bible says a thousand years to us are like a day to God. Genesis says He created the earth and everything in six days - but as there were no people around when He started there's no reason to believe it was 6x 24hr periods which iare what we call days. Not quite so hard to belive when you stop applying human viewpoints and limitations...
Darren
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Jonnycab
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Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
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Re: Religion
« Reply #7 on: Jul 21st, 2006, 3:49am » |
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Darren...I understand & agree...really.
Anyone can have a mind full of knowledge, but being able to apply that knowledge in a practical & usefull way requires intelligence.
The only thing I really cannot get my head around is why there are so many people in this world who live their lives according to their own religion & denounce all other religions as false (seems a bit shallow minded).
Darren & DJWerkz..please don't take any offence to this question as I am only asking out of interest, but can you thruthfully & honestly turn around & say to me that the Christian faith is the only true faith?, because being as intelligent as you both seem, then I would have thought that an open minded approach to religion was the most logical 
Please let me know if I'm pushing it a bit far
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DJWerkz
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on Jul 21st, 2006, 3:49am, jonnycab wrote:The only thing I really cannot get my head around is why there are so many people in this world who live their lives according to their own religion & denounce all other religions as false (seems a bit shallow minded).
Darren & DJWerkz..please don't take any offence to this question as I am only asking out of interest, but can you thruthfully & honestly turn around & say to me that the Christian faith is the only true faith?, because being as intelligent as you both seem, then I would have thought that an open minded approach to religion was the most logical
Please let me know if I'm pushing it a bit far |
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lol,...no, you are not pushng it too far and neither do take any offence. Afterall, if you believe in creation (which I do), you believe that humans were created with free will (another differentiator between us and animals). We have free will to decide which path we want to take, even if it is the wrong one.
The simple answer to your question about which is the right religion; if God is our creator would it surely not be the commands and principles he laid down for us that would be the wise course to follow?
If you bought a DVD player and did not follow the manufacturers directions and warnings in the owners manual and for example started sticking sticking bread in the drawer mechanism and expecting toast to come out, it's reasonable to think that before long the DVD willl most likely fail at some point.
Adam & Eve did not follow their 'manufacturers' warning and as such all human life after this was inflicted with imperfection. They were like the bread makers tin that has a dent in it and all batches of bread made from that tin contain an imperfection from the dent.
As imperfect humans a trait has always been to do what they think is best and dismiss any need or value in applying God's command's and principles.
The challenge then becomes to find the one true Faith (and the Bible does state that there is only one true Faith in God's eyes which you will recognise by it's works).
I suppose in short the question should be; Not, what do I want, but what does God want?
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Highlander
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Re: Religion
« Reply #9 on: Jul 21st, 2006, 7:57am » |
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We evolved from tiny organisms, we were not created by "Higher" beings and while I believe there is intelligent life on other planets, they dont "play" around with us.
Religion was created to control the masses through fear.
There is no God.
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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DJWerkz
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I was waiting for the evolutionist/athiest to come out to play,...lol
I will not use this thread to knock down anyone's own belief's, that would be inconsiderate and showing a lack of love for my fellow neighbour. However there are cases of argument to dispell evolution and atheism too
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Daven
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I'm a cheeky Boy! (Simmos fan club)
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Re: Religion
« Reply #11 on: Jul 21st, 2006, 8:29am » |
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IMO everyone has a right to think what they like and should not be condemed for it - if someone wants to think there is a god or gods then fine.
What I object to is when we start fighting over a theory - and it is just a theory. Even this topic in a car forum could cause heated discussion which could turn to abuse (if seen it before on other forums) - we must be the most self destructive species especially in the name of religion!
I would rather see all the cash, time and effort put into more important issues such as famin, desease and the environment!
Very interesting to dabate - but you could turn it into a life long subject
Dave
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Jonnycab
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Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
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Re: Religion
« Reply #12 on: Jul 21st, 2006, 9:50am » |
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I was starting to think the same thing Daven. With so many differing thoughts & opinons then it is right to think that eventually members will fall out with each other & the subject will be reduced to a slagging match.
Maybe it wasn't really a good choice to start such a topic on a car forum, which is why I'm not going to contribute to this discussion anymore.
I apologise if I caused any offence & I think in the future I will keep my personal beliefs away from this forum & save them for a drunken night out down the pub ...or maybe just have a little dig at the watchtower brigade next time they knock
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Highlander
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Re: Religion
« Reply #13 on: Jul 21st, 2006, 11:51am » |
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So everyone is backing down now that the truth has been revealed??
Surely if I as the "evolutionist/athiest " can discuss this subject without verbally abusing my fellow members then I would at the very least expect the followers of religion among you to do the same
My mind is not closed on the subject.. show me some evidence of the existence of God or aliens which control our lives and i shall be converted.
Religion as far as I can see is one of the main causes if not THEE main cause of death, destruction and heartache in our world, where is the good in that??
Yes its nice to think there is something to turn to when times are hard, when in need of support or help, that theres something at the end of the tunnel and I have no doubt people believe religion has helped them cope with all different kinds of things but I also believe religion is man made.
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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Daven
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Re: Religion
« Reply #14 on: Jul 21st, 2006, 12:55pm » |
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on Jul 21st, 2006, 11:51am, Highlander wrote:So everyone is backing down now that the truth has been revealed??
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Not at all - but the day it can be discussed with every religion without anger or fear of reprisal is the day I look forward to!
This topic as been discussed with sensible good humoured debate - and as such I would love to continue but I would be concerned how long it would be before an outsider comes and destroys it causing admins un-necessary work.
Sad fact but true - another non-car related forum I use has banned such discussion due to the insults posted!
Oh and for the record I am from Beetlejuise where I am a God and can tell you ants are really farming you
Dave
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DJWerkz
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Back down me?!!!
Like other forum members I dont want this to turn into a nasty discussion.
What I will say is that I TOTALLY agree with Highlander on the matter of religion causing untold problems in the earth, but as I attempted to point out before, religion is from man, quite what that has to do with what God wants is another matter (appreciating that some may not belive in God of course ).
Personally I think we have all handled ourselves very well on this subject, nothing mentioned here has upset me, afterall, when you get a little experience in life you appreciate that not everyone thinks the same and it's good to have inteilligent debate's every now and then. Pity many people elsewhere do not know how to debate in a rational manner 
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Highlander
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Re: Religion
« Reply #16 on: Jul 21st, 2006, 2:45pm » |
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ok, well on a slightly different track then...(and since no one seems willing to pick up my gauntlet)
If as Jonnycab states, we have only become so advanced in the last hundred years or so due to alien intervention, would it be safe to assume that due to the large number of Scottish inventions there is a higher percentage of Scottish aliens than can be found within any other nationality?
The average Englishman in the home he call his castle slips into his national costume, a shabby raincoat, patented by Chemist Charles Macintosh from Glasgow, Scotland.
En-route to his office he strides along the English lane, surfaced by John Macadam of Ayr, Scotland.
He drives an English car fitted with tyres invented by John Boyd Dunlop, Veterinary Surgeon of Dreghorn, Scotland.
At the office he receives the mail bearing adhesive stamps invented by John Chalmers, Bookseller and Printer of Dundee, Scotland.
During the day he uses the telephone invented by Alexander Graham Bell, born in Edinburgh, Scotland. At home in the evening his daughter pedals her bicycle invented by Kirkpatrick Macmillan, Blacksmith of Thornhill, Dumfriesshire, Scotland.
He watches the news on television, an invention of John Logie Baird of Helensburgh, Scotland, and hears an item about the U.S. Navy founded by John Paul Jones of Kirkbean, Scotland.
Nowhere can an Englishman turn to escape the ingenuity of the Scots.
He has by now been reminded too much of Scotland and in desperation he picks up the Bible, only to find that the first man mentioned in the good book is a Scot, King James VI, who authorized its translation.
He could take to drink but the Scots make the best in the world.
He could take a rifle and end it all, but the breech-loading rifle was invented by Captain Patrick Ferguson of Pitfours, Scotland.
If he escaped death, he could find himself on an operating table injected with penicillin, discovered by Sir Alexander Fleming of Darvel, Scotland, and given chloroform, an anesthetic discovered by Sir James Young Simpson, Obstetrician and Gynecologist of Bathgate, Scotland.
Out of the anesthetic he would find no comfort in learning that he was as safe as the Bank of England founded by William Paterson of Dumfries, Scotland.
Perhaps his only remaining hope would be to get a transfusion of guid Scottish blood which would entitle him to ask:
"Wha's Like Us?"
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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scorpio_man
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Ford Kuga awd
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Re: Religion
« Reply #17 on: Jul 21st, 2006, 2:50pm » |
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DJWerkz
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lololol
...I even have a good Celtic name as well,...Craig (of the crag)
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Bren
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I claim the 5th amendment officer
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Re: Religion
« Reply #19 on: Jul 21st, 2006, 7:44pm » |
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on Jul 21st, 2006, 2:45pm, Highlander wrote:| would it be safe to assume that due to the large number of Scottish inventions |
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But could it now be that the Englishman has somewhat fallen out with his immediate neighbour of late? The average Englishman today drives his German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, then drives home, stopping on the way for an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab, then eating it sitting on his Swedish furniture, whilst watching American TV shows on his Japanese TV, whilst being wary of anything foriegn.
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Vote WHITTINGTON for London Mayor
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