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Topic: Right To Repair (Read 903 times) |
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mindofitsown
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Right To Repair
« on: Mar 31st, 2009, 2:09pm » |
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I've only recently heard about the 'Right To Repair Campaign' and today looked up the website address for information(www.r2rc.co.uk). Its very worrying for the aftermarket independant repairers and car owners since unless something is done, in the future we will be forced to use main dealers for almost all work. Has anyone else heard of this predicament (or am I slow off the mark as usual)?
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Scorpio_Mike
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Re: Right To Repair
« Reply #1 on: Mar 31st, 2009, 3:53pm » |
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I've not heard of this before, good on your for bringing it up.
Just wondering how owners of older cars whose manufacturers have long since gone bust will access franchised dealerships...
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Star sign is Scorpio !
Sierra XR4i's are great...especially when fitted with 4WD 
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Dave2302
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2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
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Re: Right To Repair
« Reply #2 on: Apr 1st, 2009, 2:17am » |
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Hi Guys,
Down sth workin at Transmission firm due to staff holidays.
Been on the p1ss tonite, but bear with me here...
Being a Transmission (mainly auto) Rebuilder for the past 25 years I have seen things go from easy to ridiculous. Manufacturers and Dealerships have gone from helpful and caring about their product (you and my cars), to total @ssh@les
20 years ago I used to keep a dozen Ford C3 boxes and a dozen Borg Warners, on the shelf ready to fit.
I would also keep in stock bearings, gaskets, seals, sprags and clutches / bands for GM/Chevy, Chrysler and Ford American Boxes. (Probably £300 quids worth of bits).
There wasn't one car on the road that would come into my workshop that we couldn't either fit a box off the shelf or rebuild it within the same day.
Information (i.e. drawings, workshop manuals etc etc as well as each and every part was freely available).
Nowadays, the boxes are constructed with pressed steel or ally parts that are simply not up to the job, and the manufacturers will not sell individual parts nor allow access to information about their transmissions. Also variants of the same model car will have slightly differing boxes, meaning an off the shelf replacement is not an option. The unit in the car must be rebuilt.
I / We Transmission rebuilders have relied mainly on the fact that most Automatic Cars are sold in America and that is where the majority of our aftermarket parts:- tools, clutches, seal kits, etc etc come from, as well as workshop manuals, software to access the ECU's, CD ROM's, Trans Exercise Machines, Specialist Eqpt. et al.
Now this week, (first back at the firm since last year), I've heard it all.  Got a 55 plate A 160 CDI Mercedes in. These newer ones use an Electronic CVT Transmission, rather than the old Electronic Clutch and Gearset Type fitted to the early A Class, that we can all get bits for and sort out their problems.
The car we've got in drove perfectly but had an awful bearing groan, on road test I found this was Engine Speed related rather than Road Speed related. Drew the conclusion, bearing gone on the end of the Primary Unit.
Got it out the car, started to strip it and thought, these look easy 
How wrong was I
Two very special sockets needed to get the primary and secondary nuts off, only available to the main agent, won't sell em to us. (These particular nuts are not like a hex or 12 point pattern, they are sort of elliptic curve shape, and thrust bearings run on 'em so ya cant possibly nip em off with a chisel or a punch)!! No, no, only the special tool will do.
Okay so I get on to my Parts Supplier who imports all the tools, parts etc from the States. He laughs at me and explains....
These cars were never sold in The US of A so there is no aftermarket parts available, no one out there is producing the tools either. No one in "Good Ole Blighty" will do this either, (uneconomical as there aren't that many on the road....bit like why Haynes never produced a workshop manual for our beloved Scorpios) !!
So I get on to a Main Dealer who we do work for,
"Can you get me the 2 sockets (presumably off a certain tool co who make all the different Main Agents speciaistl tools), to undo the nuts, oh and while yer at it also a bearing, a new filter and the case gakets." Now bear in mind, when their second hand car sales dept takes one in with a naffed box, they won't fit a genuine one they'll want me to rebuild it (due to the price difference. We are half the price of a Main Dealer Transmission and still give a years guarantee)!!
Parts Man says "No parts available, and we cannot supply the tools!!
Bottom line is I have a man like you and I's pride and joy all in bits. It only needs one bearing (which incidentally I can get £12.45 + VAT) and a couple of gaskets & a filter (should be about £30.00 tops) and we can't do the job cos the vehicles manufacturer can't / wont supply the neccessary parts / tools.
However, they will sell us a new Transmission for £2500 to fit into the mans car.... Oh but we can't fit it cos they won't release the software to allow me to reset the adaptives in the ECU!! But they don't tell us that, they will happily sell us the gearbox and when it goes BANG they'll blame us cos we didn't reset the adaptives !!
Ho, Hum... 
This is the sign of things to come!! Guys my advice is sell yr car when it gets to 50,000miles, and buy a brand new one.... Oh, and if you can't afford to do that (like me).... Well b@gger you the "New Clone System" says you shouldn't be driving any car at all then !!!!
Would be interested to see if anyone out there is finding this in their own respetive trades ??
Regards Dave 
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Scorpio_Mike
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Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.0 V6 & 2.8 Sierra XR4i 4x4
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Re: Right To Repair
« Reply #3 on: Apr 1st, 2009, 9:51am » |
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Let's turn the clock back 30 years or so...
Back then most cars used to rot to bits in less than 10 years.
There was nothing too complicated on them to go wrong...it was always the rust that finally killed them off.
Manufacturers improved rust prevention measures so most can last 15 years or more now before tin-worm becomes a big problem.
Modern cars are now loaded up with stuff that can be almost guaranteed to go wrong and cost more than the car is worth to fix at some point...so we are now seeing cars with relatively rust-free bodywork being scrapped due to something small and expensive going wrong.
Are the manufacturers getting their own back now because the bodywork isn't rusting and cars are lasting too long ?
Do I smell a rat... 
Or am I just being cynical 
Couple of people I work with have recently sold their modern 'disposable' car and gone for a daily classic runabout - sick of paying big repair bills for seemingly simple faults, they have gone for something with simple mechanics that can easily be serviced by anyone with basic tools. Haynes manuals for older cars can be picked up at boot sales / ebay / autojumbles for pennies.
Chap I knew a long time ago bought a rusty old MGB to restore - bought a new bodyshell from BL Heritage - and rebuilt it. Everyone thought he was crazy. Restoration cost him about £5k around 20 years ago. Saw him at a classic car show last year with his MGB - it still looked immaculate and he said he uses it daily. Not so crazy after all. Car is probably worth more than £5k now.
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Star sign is Scorpio !
Sierra XR4i's are great...especially when fitted with 4WD
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gozz
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Been around awhile
Posts: 3475
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Re: Right To Repair
« Reply #5 on: Apr 1st, 2009, 5:41pm » |
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How many of us elected to be European ? certainly not I ! it doesn't trouble me being British even though I'm English,but European good to trade with em but one of em I ain't.
Scorpio_Mike has the right idea re electronicless older cars,we've all had em when times were more leisurely(though we didn't realise it then).Today they would fill the bill very well for daily use to work,or the railway station(if the car parks were adequate)should we need to travel afar.Presumably no one could replicate them in a new vehicle today because of stringent emission regulations,how time moves on,in ever decreasing circles methinks !
GOZZ.
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Dave2302
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2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
Posts: 1119
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Re: Right To Repair
« Reply #6 on: Apr 1st, 2009, 7:15pm » |
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With all of you. This is why I'm still driving my 11 year old Land Rover Discovery and when it goes wrong parts are relatively cheap, easy to source and its easy enough to work on.
Recently I had to get a couple of bits from the main agent. I've had the car from 6 months old and have all receipts etc. One of their salesmen got talking to me and offered me an absolutely blinding deal on a brand new one. I was tempted but being in the trade I work on the new ones, and know they ain't half as reliable and very expensive on parts so I explained why I wasn't interested.
By the end of the conversation the Salesman and his Manager agreed with me.
TBH I will repair it and service it and keep it forever, it still looks like new and has a private plate on it so what would I want a new aggro version for
Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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gozz
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Re: Right To Repair
« Reply #7 on: Apr 1st, 2009, 8:39pm » |
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Ere ere
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Highlander
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13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
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Re: Right To Repair
« Reply #8 on: Apr 1st, 2009, 9:05pm » |
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Heres another of my daily drivers 
Its had a hell of a life in its 22 years on this earth but it'll go anywhere, whatever breaks on it I can fit in a day easy!!
I've even had it on its roof twice!
It does suffer a bit from rust being an eighties Suzuki but i've got a good welder
You should see the main wiring loom!! theres about ten wires in it!!
Plenty life left in it, I've promised it to my 14 year old son when he passes his test
How many new cars can you do this in then drive it home
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1ZajFQqP-0
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:I give up !  Too much for an old boy! |
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Tons_of_fun
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Mmmm...Xena !
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Re: Right To Repair
« Reply #9 on: Apr 1st, 2009, 9:49pm » |
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TBH i've read the proposal of "main dealer" only repairs & my jaw has been resting on the keyboard  . No way could i afford to go to Ford for servicing or repairs. In fact if it wasn't for Matt,s parts mountain i wouldnt be on the road now . What really makes me chuckle though is the last time i went to FMD to get a belt one of the mechanics had a quick glance at the car and said "what is it" . Says it all really dosent it
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Lord...Sometimes im not that bright
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Highlander
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13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
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Re: Right To Repair
« Reply #10 on: Apr 1st, 2009, 10:02pm » |
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LOL yep!
I know i've told the story before but on one of my visits to the local FMD (only to pick up 24v oil filters) I returned to the car to find two young mechanics circling it and they asked me the very same!!
Once went into Kwik-Fit for a tyre and was sitting in the busy waiting room when the tyre fitter came in and shouted that the Mondeo was ready, I was looking round blankly at everyone else as he repeated it the third time before the penny dropped
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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Jonnycab
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Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
Posts: 3900
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Re: Right To Repair
« Reply #11 on: Apr 2nd, 2009, 1:56am » |
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It's a sign of the times unfortunately ...it's the 21st century & whether we like it or not, vehicle design is going to get even more complex in an effort to increase efficiency & reduce emmisions.
Vehicle technology is becoming more complicated by the day in an effort to combat so called global warming ..... the use of more complicated computer management systems in cars is going to mean that any independant garage that wants to survive longterm is going to have to have mechanics with degrees in computer programming
How long will it be before the internal combustion engine is replaced or made illegal under a new fascist style 'global awareness' law.....& more worryingly, how long will it be before a production line of computerised robots will be the only way of getting your 'eco' car serviced & repaired
But we all know that there is a massive conspiracy going on, & that is companies like BP etc dictating to the governments of the world how it should be. Fossil fuel is free, care of the billions of years that this planet has had to develop.
Why bother investing billions of Dollars in alternatives when the cheapest & easiest ready made stuff is just under the earths crust ?....
Nuclear Power isn't really the answer unless there is huge investment to make it a stable source of energy. Can you imagine cars running on nuclear power ?....you wouldn't want to have an accident for fear of producing a cloud of smoke that could be seen 50 miles away .....Electric cars are waste of time too, because to produce electricity you have to burn fossil fuel.....unless you produce it in a nuclear power station, which has the potential to go unstable & vapourise every living thing within a 25 mile radius
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Highlander
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13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
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Re: Right To Repair
« Reply #12 on: Apr 2nd, 2009, 2:52am » |
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Sorry for going off topic slightly but when Jonny mentioned efficiency there I have a wee observation I'd like to share.
I have a 1993 2.5 diesel transit (non turbo) which puts out around 80 bhp. Top speed 90mph downhill, 0-60 in about a week!!
its driven foot to the floor all the time just to keep up with traffic, and returns 30 miles to the gallon.
I use hire vans regularly and recently hired a new transit diesel, 2.4TD which I think puts out around 130 bhp, would give most cars a run for their money pulling away from the lights and pulls like a train right through to 100mph and not even close to its top speed i dont expect.
Now at the end of an 800 mile trip this new high performance transit had returned.... 30mpg....
Now I KNOW there are 16 years between these two vans so why are they returning the same mpg??
If I were driving a van for a living i'd far rather have the efficiency improvements give me 40mpg and reasonable performance rather than have a van that has a great 0-60 time!
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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Jonnycab
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Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
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Re: Right To Repair
« Reply #13 on: Apr 2nd, 2009, 3:09am » |
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Good point Stuart....but I bet the emmisions on the new van are a lot lower
These shrewd vehicle manufacturers obviously know how to lower emmissions but still give crap mpg.....a collusion between the big manufacturers & the oil companies ? .....
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gozz
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Re: Right To Repair
« Reply #14 on: Apr 2nd, 2009, 8:47am » |
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Stuart.
In the case of the tranny I think you are getting what you pay for,bags of power !
I've got one of the 130 horse vans,never had a better towing vehicle,but the one before this was more impressive,2lt turbo cruising at 80mph and 37-38mpg,but illegal when towing a hearse,although when it had finished scratting at the road with it's front wheel drive the power was sufficient.Now i'm messing up the original topic
GOZZ.
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joe-satch
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Re: Right To Repair
« Reply #15 on: Apr 2nd, 2009, 12:17pm » |
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well said everyone. .as long as im able to do so..i will service my own car,and our daughters, and carry out all repairs myself.without the bully-boys in suits telling me otherwise. .
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gozz
Senior Member
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Re: Right To Repair
« Reply #16 on: Apr 2nd, 2009, 8:41pm » |
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Ere ere 
GOZZ.
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Jonnycab
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Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
Posts: 3900
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Re: Right To Repair
« Reply #17 on: Apr 2nd, 2009, 9:09pm » |
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Viva La Revolucion !!
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pinto
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Re: Right To Repair
« Reply #18 on: Apr 2nd, 2009, 10:12pm » |
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From what i've read on that site, writing to your MP / MEP will make no difference as they have already been consulted and they have no bearing on the decision anyway - its due to be made at the usual european "unelected job-for-life crook" or Comissioner level - and im pretty sure they've proabably had their bottoms well lubed by the manafacturers hospitality teams over the last few years.
From this, i can see a few possible results
Block exemption ends, and manafacturers close down all info on their new products to non OEM mechanics at the end of 2009. This results in what future historians refer to as the " great automotive collapse" as fed up motorists vote with their feet and decide to hang on to their 1993 mondeo and fix it regardless of cost (as its still a fraction of the new main dealer "service" charge)
Gordon Brown tries to help his buddies in the auto sector by attempting to force "end of life" legislation onto the statute books to force people into buying new cars - a move that is defeated by the largest party rebellion in decades .... 6 months later Gordo leads his party to the biggest electorial defeat in recorded history as he fails to realise the people he tried to con also have the vote.....
Net result is that only the handful of car manafacturers smart enough to realise that releasing the data to non OEMs means their cars sell survive into the second decade of the new millenium. Everyone now drives a Ssangyong Musso sadly now tho
Goodnight children.....
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Jonnycab
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Re: Right To Repair
« Reply #19 on: Apr 3rd, 2009, 12:45am » |
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I thought that once a car was out of it's warranty period then the main dealers weren't really interested anymore . If this is the case then the independant garages should survive okay & shouldn't have a problem getting computer data from the manufacturers.
Can you imagine in 20 years time if your (out of warranty) 8 year old Ford 'Enterprise' needed a service & the only choice was a main dealer. How long would it take before they could book it in....."Yes, no problem sir, were a bit busy at the moment, but can fit you in at about this time next year" .......And that is only as long as the artificially intelligent robot mechanics don't decide to go on strike for better microchips
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