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Topic: Torque converter intermitantly fails when cold (Read 1005 times) |
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Berkin
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Torque converter intermitantly fails when cold
« on: Sep 20th, 2004, 9:58pm » |
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HAPPY ENDING see last post. the problem was CORROSION on exposed Pipework. Many thanks to those that contributed to finding the problem. Eventually "Sid Scorpio" found it himself.
------------- ORIGINAL from OCTOBER 2004 ---------------
My 2.3 Scopio Ultima with 106,000 miles up of great driving has developed an early morning gear shift problem. (idle to first)
Until the engine and box A4LDE are fully warmed up (say 3 miles of town driving) the torque converter/clutch intermitantly fail to provide power to the wheels unltil the revs are quite high and then it locks up with a bump! This can be very embarassing at 'T' junctions and Traffic lights especially when trying to nose out gently.
Lifting ones foot off and trying again (more than once sometimes) seems to get the torque converter/clutchs attention and normal powered take-off can then be achieved.
The Gear box has been flushed twice in the last 3000 miles and the MAF unit cleaned (went like new afterwards!) except the tendency not to take-off under gentle acceleration persists.
ANY THOUGHTS ON A CURE WOULD BE MUCH APPRECIATED. Has any one else experienced this problem?
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SaveTheNight
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Re: Torque converter intermitantly fails when cold
« Reply #1 on: Sep 20th, 2004, 10:14pm » |
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there seems to be a lot of talk lately about torque converter faults but they are in fact very reliable ..and many faults can be misconstrued as converter problems .. I personally doubt that the converter is faulty .. can you explain " flushed " ? ..what exactly did you have done ? ..has the fluid been checked absolutely correctly ? ..did the " flush " improve things or was it definitely after the MAF clean ? is the clonk into first gear the ONLY fault with the box ..or do you detect any other minor change faults ? ..has the box filter ever been changed during these " flushes " ? is there any slipping at all ? .. was the fluid changed INCLUDING the converter < about 15 or more ltrs > .. or just the sump emptied < about 4.5 ltrs > ? ..
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Berkin
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Re: Torque converter intermitantly fails when cold
« Reply #2 on: Sep 20th, 2004, 10:53pm » |
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Hi, answers to questions
By Flushed
First Time the system was drained fillled and drained with car level and the filter changed. This made very little difference except that the 2 to 3 and 3 to overdrive seemed smoother.
Second Time the system was drained fillled and drained with car tilted up as per advice on this site and the filter changed and MAF unit cleaned Luckily the senior Mech ,Martin, and I both like scopios so I pointed him to this site and gave him prints of the advice.
The Cars overall perfornce and fuel consumption were improved Went like new. Idle to one fault when cold persisted. all other gear chages were good as new (still are).
Has the fluid been checked absolutely correctly ?
Sorry Don't know enough to answer this.
is the clonk into first gear the ONLY fault with the box No - It fails to move off and the revs rise to about 2500 before it Clonks. Alternatively lift the foot return to idle and squeeze the power on and most often it will move off without having clonked. If not repeat (Maybe its the return to idle that's important but missed under traffic pressure!)
Was the fluid changed INCLUDING the converter
I will ask the Garage in the morning on way to work.
Thanks for the questions
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SaveTheNight
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Re: Torque converter intermitantly fails when cold
« Reply #3 on: Sep 21st, 2004, 8:06am » |
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Hi Berkin .. great and clear explanation thanks .. I asked about the method because < as you probably know > it's impossible to change all the fluid ..< that is : including the torque converter > ..by removing the auto sump ..you only change the sump fluid that way . so if the fluid is degraded and that's unlikely ..then that method only changes 4.5 litres .. however ..by doing that effectively twice then you will have changed more by the method you used .. some garages have the equipment to change the WHOLE fluid through the dipstick which is why I asked .. checking the fluid is by running the car for a few miles until totally up to temp ..then leaving the car running ..go through the gears a few times stationary ..then back to park .. check the dipstick at that point .. I'm sure Martin or yourself will have done that though .. after that perhaps ask him to adjust the front brake band on the side of the box to see what difference it makes to the operation .. it is a tech job but doesn't need to be ..just to see any improvement .. theres a locknut around an adjuster on the side of the box ..bit awkard to get at but he should manage fine ..undo the locknut and make sure it's free on the adjuster ..wind it out a bit and then take the inner adjuster IN until you just feel contact with the brake band ..then back of a tiny bit and lock the outer locknut .. don't worry about the full correct procedure as
long as you back of after touching the band ..this will at the very least eliminate one thing from the equation ... regards .......STN
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Snoopy
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Re: Torque converter intermitantly fails when cold
« Reply #4 on: Sep 21st, 2004, 8:32am » |
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In addition to what STN states I would be looking at a sticking solenoid ... or a lazy one, but thats a specialist job IMHO..... but try the brake band adjust and then see what happens...
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Danny_R
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97 Ford Crown Vic 4.6L V8 ,88 Mercury GM 5.0L V8
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Re: Torque converter intermitantly fails when cold
« Reply #5 on: Sep 21st, 2004, 7:26pm » |
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Berkin, just a thought, have you had the car interrogated for fault codes using the OBD lead? most gearbox problems like sticking solenoids etc.. that snoopy mentions usually pop up in the advanced code page. This was an absolute god send when my A4LDE began playing up.
You could also do with having a very close look at the vehicle speed sensor. My speed sensor is playing up at the minute doing all kinds of weird things to the gear changes (clucky take-offs) etc.. does your O/D light flash on the dash? or is the Speedo needle a little wavy when you go above 30MPH?
Just a few more thoughts mate.
Regards
Danny R
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mjb@willowfabrics
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Re: Torque converter intermitantly fails when cold
« Reply #6 on: Sep 21st, 2004, 9:00pm » |
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Hello STN, Danny R, Snoopy
Talked at the Garage this morning, Martin had said that one of the Johns had done the 2nd Flush; but he's off ill at the moment. Talked to John the Patrner and John (known as Tarquin! to distinguish between them) Neither of them remember doing the job! Asked if "Sid" the scorpio needed a Gallon or more Fluid May be 3 Gallons both said "Oh, no not that much" So maybe we diidn't get all the fluid out and change it all. Its great having a smaller garage where one knows every one and half the customers.
I will have a go at checking the fluid tomorror lunch time (as I certainly have not done it) and report back. For interest the time between disengage first and engage reverse and vice versa is between 2 and 3 seconds when cold and slightly less when hot.
Snoopy, the solenoid idea occured to me also but real technical help seems a long way away from just south of Manchester and untested (i.e. No feel for who is good and who is not so good) PS what does IMHO... stand for ?
STN When Martin is back in the land of the living I will book "Sid" in and adjust the front brake band and also see if we really did get all the old fluid out and replaced.
An after thought "Sid" has towed a 1250kg caravan for some 7000 miles. around UK and Europe Alps included. The gear system never flinched, even early this year with the this fault on a 200 mile trip.
thanks for the care and interest
Mike B
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Berkin
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Re: Torque converter intermitantly fails when cold
« Reply #7 on: Sep 21st, 2004, 9:46pm » |
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Hello Danny R
Sorry missed your points. Have not had the car interogated. The Local Ford agent is expensive, I've thought about buying an OBD lead connector and software on the internet and using my son's laptop. Has any one got experience of using this route?
My speedo is dead steady all the way up and The Overdrive lamp signals correctly and does not flicker off when on or flicker on when off!
Cruise control works fine except when towing the caravan up hill when is over stretched it just gives up and the oufit suddenly slows down. Very embarrassing as it helps to give caravanners a bad reputation. But I got used to avoiding the problem while towing up alpine passes! "Sid" scorpio didn't like the Mercs and BMWs overtaking!
Thanks for the ideas
Mike B
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Danny_R
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97 Ford Crown Vic 4.6L V8 ,88 Mercury GM 5.0L V8
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Re: Torque converter intermitantly fails when cold
« Reply #8 on: Sep 21st, 2004, 10:02pm » |
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Hi mate.
The OBD2 lead and software is such a valuable tool for the Scorpio’s. its saved me and many others 100's of pounds in bills. I'm not exactly sure how much the leads are at the minute but like many others, my first interrogation proved so valuable that the lead instantly paid for itself on the first scan as Ford wanted about 100 pounds.
If your serious about your Scorpio and want to keep it tip top, I highly recommend you get yourself a lead.
Just about everyone on her got theirs from Alex Pepper at: www.obd-2.com the connection is a serial type connection and the explorer software is available to download free of charge from the above link. I think the leads are about £70 including postage.
You could also give us your location and someone near you might have a lead you could use.
HTH
Danny R
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Snoopy
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Re: Torque converter intermitantly fails when cold
« Reply #9 on: Sep 22nd, 2004, 7:50am » |
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Hi there you seem to have loads of advice to go at and in reply..... IMHO stands for "in my honest opinion"
the time for selection seems normal Check the fluid and if that is OK then I still would have a look at sticky solenoid after first havng the brake bands done... there are plenty of auto box specialists around ...... try find the one the FMD uses they are usually pretty good as most FMD pass the work out to a local specialist anyway or ask on here
HTH (Hope this helps)
Snoopy
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Berkin
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Re: Torque converter intermitantly fails when cold
« Reply #10 on: Sep 22nd, 2004, 9:50pm » |
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Hello Everyone
Thanks for all the advice. Did not get the Fluid level checked. Rain stopped play!
Danny R, Yes I am serious about keeping ‘Sid’ in tip top condition. I looked at the OBD2 web-site last night. It has changed a bit since I last looked. I know where the connection is in the Glove compartment. However, felt unsure as which connector was right for Ford Scorpio 2.3 EFi 16V auto purchased not quite new 3000 miles on clock 1st Feb 1997 Ford warranty cert date; but probably built mid 1996.
Help please.
Modified later, Have E-mailed Sales@OBD-2.com but would like to know which version is used by members.
Mike B
PS Later still finally found the article about Fault finding on this site - Its Great.
"If you want to order one then mention it's for the Ford Scorpio and ask for the FORD PWM version (NOT the ISO one). Note: Order your leads directly from Alex at http://www.obd-2.com/ and mention the Ford Scorpio to obtain the correct version of the lead."
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Berkin
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Re: Torque converter intermitantly fails when cold
« Reply #11 on: Sep 24th, 2004, 9:56pm » |
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Progress Reort
Fluid levels are checked and OK, OBD lead on order, Senior Mech, Martin still off ill, so can't check front brake band adjustment.
Slipping is getting worse. Yesterday and again today Turned left at T junction (about 3/4 mile from startup) and eased into the moving queue for the next set of lights and 'Sid' decided to effectively go into neutral, while moving along. Speedo appeared to be reading correctly. accelerator pressure very gentle in a 4 to 7mph rolling queue. Revs climbed then a big "clonk" which scared the car ahead. Sid Scorpio may have been changing indecisively between first and second at the time of loosig forward drive. (This is getting seriously awarkward to drive safely when cold! Still performs faultlessly when warmed up say after 3 or 4 miles town and country driving)
Further thoughts on fault and cure appreciated.
Mike B
Wedneday 29th progress note
Got the OBD-2 Cable and My sons lap top runs the sample software fine will get connected up and log a couple of journeys to work. as thats when the fault occurs.
Thursday 30th progress note
Stationary run with laptop and cable showed no History DTCs just one current DTCP0171 System too lean Bank 1 How do we cure this?
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Berkin
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Re: Torque converter intermitantly fails when cold
« Reply #12 on: Feb 24th, 2005, 10:13pm » |
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on Sep 20th, 2004, 9:58pm, Berkin wrote:My 2.3 Scopio Ultima with 106,000 miles up of great driving has developed an early morning gear shift problem. (idle to first)
Until the engine and box A4LDE are fully warmed up (say 3 miles of town driving) the torque converter/clutch intermitantly fail to provide power to the wheels unltil the revs are quite high and then it locks up with a bump! This can be very embarassing at 'T' junctions and Traffic lights especially when trying to nose out gently.
Lifting ones foot off and trying again (more than once sometimes) seems to get the torque converter/clutchs attention and normal powered take-off can then be achieved.
The Gear box has been flushed twice in the last 3000 miles and the MAF unit cleaned (went like new afterwards!) except the tendency not to take-off under gentle acceleration persists.
ANY THOUGHTS ON A CURE WOULD BE MUCH APPRECIATED. Has any one else experienced this problem? |
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Berkin
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Re: Torque converter intermitantly fails when cold
« Reply #13 on: Feb 24th, 2005, 10:49pm » |
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Hello Scorpio Autobox enthusiasts
YES, the Box is strong and we have finally sorted the problem. Simple corrosion so check all exposed pipe-work.
After a long Snowy and Salty Trip the Poor old Fellow (Sid Scorpio) nearly gave up. I noticed He had "messed himself" all over the rear window. Also no reverse Gear! Any way nursed him back home that night about 125 Miles (apologies to anyone behind me with oily windscreens.)
We had flushed the Box Bought an "OBD2" lead and checked him out using an old lap top. Cured the "DTCP0171 System too lean Bank 1” error and kept faith with the Scorp despite the “wonky clunky” gear changing when cold.
HAPPY ENDING all problems disappeared after replacing the cooler pipes. The front end had corroded badly and had several miniscule pinholes in it. It seems the tiny pressure loss was enough to cause Gearbox malfunction.
IF your Scorp drops into neutral when cold it will eventually get worse and start to occur when warm and finally dangerously when hot.
The cure for us was not expensive under £100 at our local proper garage, which has Ford trained Mechs who actually care and do not gloss over the job.
Happy ending BUT check for corrosion brakes coolers gear box - don’t trash the Scorp just because he is behaving badly! (g)
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mr._floppy
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Re: Torque converter intermitantly fails when cold
« Reply #14 on: Feb 25th, 2005, 11:04am » |
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After I got my Scorp and with advice from this site about the weakness of these pipes , it was the first thing I checked, I got it up on a mate's hoist, took off the sump guard and had a good gander at their condition, found they weren,t too bad , then coated grease on them for good measure.
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desandlorraine
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94 2.0l ultima estate gas conversion
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Re: Torque converter intermitantly fails when cold
« Reply #15 on: Feb 26th, 2005, 7:48pm » |
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BE VERY CAREFULL WITH THIS MAKE SURE ITS IN GEAR BEFORE RELEASING BRAKE AS I HAD SAME PROBLEM AND CV JOINT ON DRIVE SHAFT GAVE UP HOPE THIS HELPS DES
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