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Topic: Still dead!? 2.3 16v (Read 2694 times) |
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Sian_RK
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Okay. Fuseboxes checked. Battery replaced. Alternator replaced.
NOW the car doesn't even start, let alone start, run, then shut down all electronics. The 2.3 only has two wires to the alternator, and those are fitted correctly. The battery is nice and healthy. When I switch on the ignition, I get nothing on the instruments; radio, heated seats still work. Headlights, if switched on, activate the washers. No windows. PATS looking normal.
I cannot believe that not using a car for three weeks can kill it so comprehensively.
I've disconnected the battery (as well as disconnecting to swap the alternators), this new twist is just infuriating.
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SaveTheNight
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I can resist anything ...except temptation !!
 
 
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Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
« Reply #1 on: Jan 16th, 2005, 5:02pm » |
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sorry Sian ..I haven't seen this post before but if this twist is new.. then is there any chance that a wire has been missed when you reconnected the battery ? ..one of the thinner reds feeds the ignition/instruments/etc .. just a thought ...... regards .STN
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Sian_RK
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Bloody 1998 redesign.
My glovebox doesn't seem to detach the same way as the one detailed in the 'CCM' technical reference. Perhaps the diagram isn't clear, but I see no way of 'prising the bracket to one side'.
And for the alternator belt details - on this 1998 2.3 there is no idler pulley between the crank and A/C compressor, and the bolt on the idler is 15mm, not 17mm.
There is a computer bolted 'below' the glovebox, covered by carpet. Is this the CCM or something else?
How much is it going to cost to replace the CCM? Would we be better off just setting fire to this ill-conceived wreck of a car (Ford, step AWAY from the sophisticated electronic crap - if Mercedes can't do it now, then Ford certainly shouldn't have been trying in 199 , or is it worth trying to find out why three weeks of being parked appears to have rendered it completely unusable?
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Snoopy
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Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
« Reply #3 on: Jan 16th, 2005, 5:07pm » |
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As STN states ..... Its has been know for the thinner lead from the battery to be dropped and missed completely.... Several members have done it.. well worth checking otherwise its the main link fuses in the main fuse box worth looking at... Also check the earth leads from the battery to the chassis... otherwise see how far the current is getting with a voltmeter.. follow it through as per the wiring diagram..
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Sian_RK
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on Jan 16th, 2005, 5:02pm, SaveTheNight wrote:| sorry Sian ..I haven't seen this post before but if this twist is new.. then is there any chance that a wire has been missed when you reconnected the battery ? ..one of the thinner reds feeds the ignition/instruments/etc .. just a thought ...... regards .STN |
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All the wires are connected. I disconnected -ve, not positive.
There are two wires on the alternator. Holding the alternator in front of you with the terminals lowest, the fat wire without captive nut goes on the left, the thin wire with captive nut goes in the middle. At least, that's how they were set up on the old one, and the old and new ones are both identical, genuine Bosch/Ford parts.
All four battery wires are connected.
When you turn the key, you get: Radio, fuel pump (or similar noise from the back), heated seats are functional, sometimes there is a chime, headlights work (washers activate when you turn the lights on), no brakelights, no signals, no LCD or analogue instruments, no dashboard lights, no climate controls.
What used to happen, was that the car would start and run, then after a few minutes, the headlight washer would go, the instruments would shut off, and the engine would carry on running but without any ancilliaries (as above). If you switched off the car, it wouldn't restart (no attempt, no turning over, no lights, nothing - as above). Left for a while it would restart, but do the same thing. It was apparently overcharging, causing some sort of shutdown for the electronics - a voltemeter across the terminals gave 18v at one point.
The battery was replaced first, making no difference. Then the alternator was replaced (today) with a brand new/remanufacturered or whatever Ford unit. Having replaced it, the car is now not starting at all. No sign of life from ignition, other than the radio. Same behaviour as when it was shutting down to reset itself.
Battery voltage is 14v measured without a load - a perfectly healthy brand new battery IIRC.
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Snoopy
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Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
« Reply #5 on: Jan 16th, 2005, 5:22pm » |
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All the glove box mounts are the same and it does require a lot of force to prise it off as far as I can remember and that is the only way to get it off...... I have one taken from a scrap car and believe me that took some getting out so that is the way.....
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Snoopy
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Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
« Reply #6 on: Jan 16th, 2005, 5:28pm » |
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These syptoms are synonymous with water in the electrics or damage to the main wiring loom ..(Part of this post removed incorrect data supplied!)
Also all the main plugs and connectors well worth making sure the plugs to the fue boxes are pushed home tight.. these have been know to give problems also where the main loom goes through the left hand bulkhead is also some cause for concern......
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SaveTheNight
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Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
« Reply #7 on: Jan 16th, 2005, 5:40pm » |
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Quote:| Okay. Fuseboxes checked. Battery replaced. Alternator replaced |
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the wires to the battery must have been disconnected ..
I think perhaps that you are trying to do too many things at once Sian ... the car doesn't have a life as some will think ..and three weeks standing will not have rendered it unusable < although later attempts to rectify the cause may certainly do that >.. slow down .. recompose yourself .. and lets have the precise story bit by bit .. we will all try to help .. STN
< PCM's CCM's are almost indestructable and have many internal protection devices .. it does happen of course but unlikely > ..
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colinw
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Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
« Reply #8 on: Jan 16th, 2005, 5:49pm » |
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i know i have mentioned this before but when you said you have checked fusebox ,have you actually removed and stripped down the main drivers side box ,last easter i suffered similar probs to yourself ,car had a nind of its own ,sometimes would not start other times not switch off ,headlights worked regardless of switch position but no tail lights allsorts ,all covers were in place ,and looked ok ,on removing box and stripping it down to individual layers it was in a terrible state ,cleaned up refitted a squirt of contact cleaner to all plugs connectors to it refitted and all was well again ,im a bit perplexed as to why you are convinced it is the ccm ,as save the night says ,these things are almost indestructable unless they have been messed with ,
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SaveTheNight
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I can resist anything ...except temptation !!
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Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
« Reply #9 on: Jan 16th, 2005, 5:51pm » |
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excess voltage from the alternator will have boiled the battery and also given an acrid smell while charging ..but you seem to have cured that with replacement so don't " link " the symptoms if you can help it .. back to square one if poss .. the loom is unlikely to be the fault on that car but water ingress to the fuses could well be .. it's worth checking the main ignition relay < Snoopy will advise which > ..and the fuseable links in the fuse boxes .. are you suspect of any water ingress or not ? .. cheers ..STN
oops ..Colin beat me to it ! .. also check the small wire to the starter for 12v on cranking ..presumably it isn't getting it ..and you can work backwards .. is the car auto or manual ? ..
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Sian_RK
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Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
« Reply #10 on: Jan 16th, 2005, 6:31pm » |
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on Jan 16th, 2005, 5:28pm, Snoopy wrote:| These syptoms are synonymous with water in the electrics or damage to the main wiring loom .. there is documentation to the fact that the cars suffered loom damage from water leaks between the heads, have you checked.... the loom between the heads? |
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Between the heads? Head/s/? On a 2.3 1998 Ultima 16v 
Sorry. I'm frustrated with the car, but since I first posted, everyone has said "it's the fusebox" or "it's water". I think that the fusebox stripdown is a lot of work with an extremely low probability of success in fixing this problem, or indeed, finding the problems that have affected much older cars which have been missing their covers (or, like the example on the website, have been left with the covers off and the bonnet open in the rain).
Flowchart of problem:
Car won't start - battery is dead.
Charge battery. Car starts, runs for approx. 5 minutes, then instruments and warning lights die, turn signals and brakelights, windows, fan all disabled.
Check voltage. Voltage at battery is 16v when shutdown occurs.
Replace battery (dead cell causing excessive drain?) - car starts, runs, shuts down. Check voltage. 18v at shutdown.
NOTE THAT ALL THE CONNECTIONS AT THIS STAGE HAVE BEEN CHECKED - fuseboxes checked for moisture by random checking of fuses for corrosion rather than systematic, but no evidence of water ingress. Yes, for the n'th time, it DOES have a battery cover .
Decide overvoltage is most likely a failed regulator. Replace alternator.
Car seems to be locked in the 'shutdown' state.
Now, I've just disconnected the alternator and tried it, and no change. So I'm leaving the battery disconnected overnight.
Please - all useful and new advice is greatly appreciated but repetition doesn't help - assume that if it's been suggested, I've tried it, because if it's fixed someone else's car, I'll give it a go!
I've owned 114 cars and worked on a lot of them myself (over 20 of them have been Citroens of the CX and XM varieties - I'm used to weird electronic problems); I'm asking in here because I really am baffled by the Scorpio's current behaviour and hoped for experienced, logical suggestions as to the cause of the problem.
Again, all the help is greatly appreciated, especially from the experienced owners - but this car /has/ the covers and always has done. There is no reason to suspect water ingress. I will, if there are no other explanations/solutions, go to the trouble of stripping down the fuseboxes, but only once I have all the information to have correctly eliminated faults that assume the wiring is intact.
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Sian_RK
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Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
« Reply #11 on: Jan 16th, 2005, 6:34pm » |
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on Jan 16th, 2005, 5:40pm, SaveTheNight wrote:
the wires to the battery must have been disconnected ..
I think perhaps that you are trying to do too many things at once Sian ... the car doesn't have a life as some will think ..and three weeks standing will not have rendered it unusable < although later attempts to rectify the cause may certainly do that >.. |
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The wires were disconnected.
(BTW: It's the RK half of Sian_RK, though since Sian can stripdown and rebuild a scooter and is well versed in Italian electrical systems - as well as once owning a Cadillac Hearse - she's as experienced as I am with badly-behaved cars. It's her car, but I'm the one with the spanners).
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mr._floppy
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Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
« Reply #12 on: Jan 16th, 2005, 6:37pm » |
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I wonder has the car been inadvertantly immobilised ?
Got the red key?
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George
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ash black 2.3 16v ghia 134000miles
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Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
« Reply #13 on: Jan 16th, 2005, 6:37pm » |
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hi sian
i read earlier that you connected all four wires to your battery do you mean two to your positive and two to your negative or just four to your negative ......
my 2.3 16v has six on the battery it has on my positive one thick wire and one half the size of the other and on my negative i have one thick one and one half the other size again and two small black ones as well hope this is of any help
regards george
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Sian_RK
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Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
« Reply #14 on: Jan 16th, 2005, 6:39pm » |
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on Jan 16th, 2005, 5:49pm, colinw wrote:| i know i have mentioned this before but when you said you have checked fusebox ,have you actually removed and stripped down the main drivers side box ,last easter i suffered similar probs to yourself |
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What you described is very unlike this car. This car has a very specific, repeatable pattern of operation
However, no, I haven't removed the fusebox, because it's dry, the connections are good, and there is no sign of water ingress anywhere. It /could/ be that there is water in the fusebox, however, given the utterly predictable behaviour of the car prior to alternator replacement, I think the fusebox is fine (in fact, before the dead battery, which was down to lack of use and perhaps prior problems with the alternator) the car behaved perfectly.
I'm not convinced that the CCM is at fault at all. I am not familiar with the Ford's multiplex wiring, just other cars - so I can't assume either way. I have had problems with 480s which were due to their equivalent of the CCM failing; XMs which were earthing issues, and CXs due to failing componentry. If people say that CCM failure is unheard of, then I accept that, but then I want to know about the protections - what are the protections that are in place?
If, for example, someone can say that the instruments and windows being dead have nothing to do with the CCM, then I can discount the CCM.
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Sian_RK
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Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
« Reply #15 on: Jan 16th, 2005, 6:44pm » |
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on Jan 16th, 2005, 6:37pm, mr._floppy wrote: I wonder has the car been inadvertantly immobilised ?
Got the red key? |
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No red key - I've read elsewhere that the '98 models maybe don't have one (handbook says otherwise) - however the LED for the anti-theft system isn't indicating anything out of the ordinary. Surely if the car was immobilised, the warning lights and so on would come on as normal on the dash? It has started every time when it 'recovered' from whatever this shutdown state is.
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Sian_RK
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Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
« Reply #16 on: Jan 16th, 2005, 6:55pm » |
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on Jan 16th, 2005, 6:37pm, George wrote:hi sian
i read earlier that you connected all four wires to your battery do you mean two to your positive and two to your negative or just four to your negative ......
my 2.3 16v has six on the battery it has on my positive one thick wire and one half the size of the other and on my negative i have one thick one and one half the other size again and two small black ones as well hope this is of any help |
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There only appear to be four wires - perhaps someone has added equipment to your car, or it is a revision? Both sides have a fat and thin wire each. Certainly the car was working fine with these four.
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George
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ash black 2.3 16v ghia 134000miles
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Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
« Reply #17 on: Jan 16th, 2005, 7:06pm » |
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i may be wrong but i think you are two small black wires missing off your negative most fords have them and every scorpio i have worked on have them i will just ip outside and take a look where they go to
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Sian_RK
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Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
« Reply #18 on: Jan 16th, 2005, 7:11pm » |
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on Jan 16th, 2005, 5:51pm, SaveTheNight wrote:excess voltage from the alternator will have boiled the battery and also given an acrid smell while charging ..but you seem to have cured that with replacement so don't " link " the symptoms if you can help it ..
oops ..Colin beat me to it ! .. also check the small wire to the starter for 12v on cranking ..presumably it isn't getting it ..and you can work backwards .. is the car auto or manual ? .. |
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Well, the symptoms are identical. Don't recall the smell, since I checked with a voltmeter and shut the car down as soon as the electronics went off, I don't think it would have had time to be affected.
12v - if I had ignition/bulb warning on the dashboard, I'd be trying that. But I don't. Assuming it has a sequence of operations when you switch ignition on, it's not getting that far.
Say:
Turn key to ACC (position 1 or whatever) - radio and the like are enabled.
Turn key to ignition (position 2)
What should happen, I think, is - turn key. Ignition circuits enabled - bulb check on dash, instruments energised, PATS checks key (this doesn't seem to happen - red light continues to blink with steady intervals), other circuits such as starter and such enabled.
It's not getting the bulb check. PATS isn't checking the key - no warning lights to indicate a fault with PATS, or an invalid key - and needless to say turning the key to start has no effect whatsoever /but/ the relay for ensuring the power goes to the starter and not the rest of the car does click - radio goes off etc. Just with no reason. Starter inhibitor isn't a factor at this stage, the auto is sensing if it isn't in park (beep is working).
I think I must be able to discount the CCM, as the total closure system is functioning - open car, all windows down, lock car, rear windows then front windows close.
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Sian_RK
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Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
« Reply #19 on: Jan 16th, 2005, 7:12pm » |
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on Jan 16th, 2005, 7:06pm, George wrote:| i may be wrong but i think you are two small black wires missing off your negative most fords have them and every scorpio i have worked on have them i will just ip outside and take a look where they go to |
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I was just out there, and looked as I'd read your post beforehand - I can't find any extra wires anywhere. It's a 1998 model, perhaps they are different or the wires are bundled together onto one terminal.
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