Author |
Topic: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!) (Read 7399 times) |
|
nevprice
Full Member
1996 ULTIMA 24v auto(Aubergine)
Posts: 234
|
 |
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #20 on: May 14th, 2005, 10:20pm » |
 Quote  Modify
|
Hopefully the end of the saga(after about 2 months of grief!!)Sent the main ECU that is behined the glovebox to be bench tested and it proved to be OK  Ford dealer said it could possibly be the "EDDIS" module under the bonnet(this supposedly controls the spark setup?)Unfortunately these cant be bench tested like the main ECU so I had to take a flyer and get my brave head on and have a purchase to the sum of £250 
However I have had the car back for three weeks and sofar it hasnt missed a beat 
Its a dream to drive even though the garage bills came to over £500 I think I might keep it for a bit and enjoy it!!
Take care all  NEV............
|
|
 IP Logged |
|
|
|
scorpio_man
Administrator
Ford Kuga awd
Posts: 5654
|
|
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #21 on: May 15th, 2005, 6:52am » |
Quote Modify
|
hi there
keep it! you know you want to!
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Paul B
Senior Member
'98 24V Ultima saloon
Posts: 2442
|
|
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #22 on: May 15th, 2005, 7:58am » |
Quote Modify
|
I loved your car when we saw it up at Derby last year. Its a minter!
KEEP KEEP KEEP! 
|
|
IP Logged |
Two hundred & seven horses and only one jockey!
|
|
|
craig
Guest
|
|
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #23 on: May 15th, 2005, 8:30am » |
Quote Modify
 Remove
|
at least you can still listen to the pink floyd cd's in comfort as well
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
nevprice
Full Member
1996 ULTIMA 24v auto(Aubergine)
Posts: 234
|
|
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #24 on: May 15th, 2005, 10:18pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Thanks for the messages of support  I now have a company car and a Diahatsu van and a Landrover series 2a that my dad bought new in '67 (when I was born,so thats a family heirloom)and the Scorpio.It seems a shame now its running fine to mothball it because I wont get the use out of it
If anyones interested i'll consider offers over £1300.
PM me and I will put all the info on the site if anyones up for it..
Regards Nev....................
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Waglet
Full Member
Aubergine 24V
Posts: 209
|
|
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #25 on: Feb 27th, 2009, 11:41am » |
Quote Modify
|
This 'saga' is the same symptons I have. (Mine is still a non starter, turns over a treat!) Think I'll try an EDIS unit and see what happens. (Sorry to drag up an old 'topic). SHAUN :- any chance of a price on the EDIS from your 'breaker'?
|
|
IP Logged |
Waglet
|
|
|
rich1
Full Member
london cabbies have the knowledge!!
Posts: 747
|
|
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #26 on: Feb 27th, 2009, 3:46pm » |
Quote Modify
|
"christine" springs to mind
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Waglet
Full Member
Aubergine 24V
Posts: 209
|
|
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #27 on: Feb 27th, 2009, 6:14pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Just a thought (sorry to go on and monopalise the site) would a faulty EDIS unit cause the fuel pump to kick in and hence fail to start?
|
|
IP Logged |
Waglet
|
|
|
adamn
Newbie
adam+n
Posts: 34
|
|
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #28 on: Feb 27th, 2009, 8:11pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Hi,
got about 150k miles with my scorpio, that got all the neccessary service before and got basically no problems so far.
Now, starting this winter season - engine started to run poorly, and suddenly stopped running, got to be towed. Since then, there was no way to start it again - well, actually it did, just a few times, but only after few days with disconnected battery and even then the engine was running only for a very short period of time (few minutes and the even less).
I'm an electrical engineer, so I decided to try to repair it by myself.
I've prepared following text as it might help the others, experiencing similliar problems
(sorry for my not that great english, thank you).
As far as I've been searching the forum, I found some similiar cases, but with no solutions or with just some misleading answers as far. Hope this will help all the other scorpio owners and I also hope that someone will correct me, if I missed something or etc.
First diagnose - no fuel or no spark.
I've changed the spark plugs and both coil packs. Checked the wiring (fuel shut off loom = seems bad, but measures all ok, checked even with HV supply).
Still no difference, engine started for a while, then stalled.
I ran an OBD2 test, using VE TriCom lead.
The LTFE was minus few percent, so I've checked the fuel pump (running every time, stopped after a while, thats ok), impact switch, and finally changed the whole fuel regulator assembly (assuming the engine might be flooding, but I have no pressure gauge to measure the real fuel rail pressure).
Still no difference. So nope, fuel it is not. Anyway, EEC is shutting down the injectors if it doesn't get PIP signal for some time. That is why you can't smell unburnt fuel in your's car exhaust, when you got no spark.
Next steps:
- checked CMP, and it is OK, impedance ok, and generating some signal (used scope).
Then I've checked CKP, impedance is about 390ohms (got spare one from DOHC8V and this one is at about 240ohms), checked the wiring to EDIS, all ok.
Put scope on that (CKP+/CKP-), cranked, nice signal visible, with missing tooth recognizeable. Amplitude was quite higher than 1.4V, but I've been measuring the CKP without any load (disconnected).
Next step - checked EDIS output, PIP signal. Shoud be 12V when idle, and going to GND synchronized with CKP signal. Cranked - and it steady all the time on 12V, no change.
So I suppose, a) the EDIS is destroyed or b) problem with CKP that is erratic (eg. failing sensor, works some time and then not, well, I'm going to swap it anyway).
Interesting is, that if, somehow, the engine starts (even for a while), there are clearly visible faults in PIP signal (missing falling edges to GND) and so then there is no spark and EEC is not firing injectors also.
I'm going to change the EDIS, code 91AB-12K072-AA, and will post the result. I found out, that it might be important to get EDIS4 module with the same whole code. I suppose that modules with different pre or postfixes (89, AA,AC,...) will probably have some difference in wiring of the tacho signal output.
PS It might be also worth to put a signal generator instead of CKP and then check the PIP and IDM signal, this will definitelly say if EDIS is failed or not, if I get some spare time I will do that too.
-edit- According to specs, when the engine is stopped, but the key is turned on (KOEOff), the EDIS module emits a 64us pulse every 262.144ms to indicate proper operation (IDM wire). This might be worth checking!
EDIS is a very heavy duty part, and I really wonder how it could break... I've made some description of EDIS4, so if anyone is interested, go to http://sc.an-d.cz
I might prepare some more technical texts etc. if anyone is interested, leave me a note.
some other interesting notice is, that there are NO recorded obd2 trouble codes (even extended) so far. If I simulate them, they will pop up, but that is just if I manually disconnect something or so.
Normally, I've got only the "NO CODES" message, or "OBD NOT DONE YET" message. Also interesting is, that if I run the keyon-engineoff test, then the extended field named DTCCOUNT (I'm not sure about the exact name now) shows number 3 (assuming there should be 3 codes stored, but I never got the VE to read them out). When KAM is clean, it shows 0, even if after cranking the engine.
ok, one question - did anyone solved or experienced the same problem? I will post my findings when I get new EDIS, but in the mean time...
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Cosray
Full Member
8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
|
|
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #29 on: Feb 27th, 2009, 10:39pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Suggestion to pull the startinhibitor relay in the Central Junction Box and bridge/jumper contacts 30 and 87.
85 & 86 are the coil's.
If PATS is not reading key-ID properly the EEC-V will not activate the relay inhibiting ignition.
Worth the try.
Ray
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Cosray
Full Member
8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
|
|
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #30 on: Feb 27th, 2009, 10:56pm » |
Quote Modify
|
CKP is certainly suspect reading all this.
It is an active sensor i.e. Hall Generator and is known to fail of its onwn will. Also after carwash.
Had an earlier Scorpio in a Ford shop running and stopping for 3 weeks. Drove the techies mad. > CKP. Lowcost easy replacement. High ROI!
Good luck,
Ray
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
adamn
Newbie
adam+n
Posts: 34
|
|
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #31 on: Feb 28th, 2009, 10:42am » |
Quote Modify
|
CKP on DOHC engines is just an ordinary coil, no active electronics inside. And I assume the CKP sensor on Coss will be the same. Just put an osciloscope on that and you will see.
Some people say, that CKP works or does not at all. But I guess this might also be not that true, based on my experience with ABS sensors (build with definitelly the same technology, just diferent shape).
The worst for all those kinds of sensors are shock vibrations. That happens for ABS sensors very often, if mechanic helps himself with hammer when working on around the wheel, for example.
But I still guess it is EDIS module in your (and also in my actual) case.
As I wrote yesterday, I'm going to change mine and then I will refer on my progress.
You can get new CKP from Poland for 75 zlotych (eg. almost for free), or they have lots of EDIS (mostly EDIS4) on Allegro (that is Polish ebay). I'm not from Poland but those guys don't mind to send it to Europe anyway.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Cosray
Full Member
8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
|
|
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #32 on: Feb 28th, 2009, 3:19pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Right on ad**n - the VSS uses Hall generator signalshaper.
Anyway, since I had my CKP replaced the idiotic spurious engine cut-outs have totally vanished and I trust myself again to visit the carwash
Ray
PS This website replaces the above poster's name with *** thinking I am swearing..!
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
adamn
Newbie
adam+n
Posts: 34
|
|
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #33 on: Feb 28th, 2009, 4:39pm » |
Quote Modify
|
-off topic-
Hey Cosray, actually, I've been diging through some very old stuff and guess what
- there were some sensors like CKPs, build into the distributor body (= those old scorpios '80 ~ '90) and those CKPs were built using Hall technology (so there were no CKP at crankshaft, but mounted on distributor).
So even you were right 
yeah, the worst thing is to get towed, as happend to me twice at the same place (unbeliveable) about 4 hours of driving away from my home.
And all it needed was just new CKP and EDIS, a few minutes job... grrr...
But I need to be sure, that the problem actually is those things, to feel safe going far away - there is no worse feeling there if the car fails somewhere in the middle of nowhere.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Cosray
Full Member
8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
|
|
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #34 on: Feb 28th, 2009, 5:49pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Feb 28th, 2009, 4:39pm, ad**n wrote:
-off topic-
............. yeah, the worst thing is to get towed, as happend to me twice at the same place (unbeliveable) about 4 hours of driving away from my home. |
|
.... with the wife and mother-in-law and a screaming brat on board... going to a funeral... 
So always have a new CKP at hand for the AA guy to replace!
Ray
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
adamn
Newbie
adam+n
Posts: 34
|
|
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #35 on: Mar 1st, 2009, 5:46pm » |
Quote Modify
|
uhm, agree, that is driving one mad...
anyway
I've got a few used CKPs today, measured them (400 ohms all ok) and checked them (they generate power if you move some metal in front of the sensor). They all look ok.
I've tried to replace my original CKP (which is also ok, but just to be sure) with them and to no succes - engine did not started (cranked, but there were no signal at PIP line => edis4 is bad).
So I've got one used edis4 from some breaker car, and voila, car started immediately (!) and ran for couple tenths of seconds, but then stalled! If I crank it again, the PIP is gone (constant +12V). The PIP signal started missing impulses when the engine was running and after a while it gone flat (and engine stalled).
There is definitelly a problem with EDIS4 (all other systems are ok, carefully checked already).
So I think>
a) the second edis4 was broken like mine is (what a coincidence)
or
b) there is something inside the car there, that likes to kill the edis4 units.
I've measured the wirings etc. all seems ok.
what do you guys think? Am I right? Did anybody had similiar situation?
I'm going to get another EDIS4 and try it out. Will post the result.
PS (edited). I've found an 64usec impulse on IDM wire when ignition is on and the engine is not running (on all edis4 units I tried, even those broken). It is showing itself periodically, as it should, also for the broken edis4 modules, the time between two consecutive impulses is 262 msec (ford says 262 = edis4 is ok (internal diagnostics), so I'm confused).
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Cosray
Full Member
8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
|
|
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #36 on: Mar 2nd, 2009, 10:01am » |
Quote Modify
|
Hi Adam,
what model/year/month/auto/manual Scorpio are you talking?
Can't find your info.
Googled p/n 91AB-12K072-AA seems to point to Fiesta's rather than Scorpio.
Ingnitionwise there are differences.
Could there be a confusion?
Ray
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Tompion
Administrator
1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
Posts: 2918
|
|
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #37 on: Mar 2nd, 2009, 11:01am » |
Quote Modify
|
He posted more details here:
http://sc.an-d.cz/
|
|
IP Logged |
ABS multiplug wheel sensor pins MK IV or MK 20
|
|
|
Cosray
Full Member
8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
|
|
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #38 on: Mar 2nd, 2009, 11:25am » |
Quote Modify
|
... so a Ford Scorpio 1995 DOHC16 2.0
Leaves the question of the correct p/n for the EDIS.
Should that really be a p/n beginning with 91/ ?
Well Ad**n should know.
Curious,
Ray
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
adamn
Newbie
adam+n
Posts: 34
|
|
Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #39 on: Mar 2nd, 2009, 1:53pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Sorry for not leaving my cars initials. Yes it is DOHC16 2.0 manual.
I've checked one other scorpio of some guy and the code in his car is 91-12K072-AA (as in mine).
I guess the fiesta etc. will have 89 prefix,and more to that, the postfix will be diferent for other cars (AB, AC, ...) but my scorpio and the other guys scorpio (with the same engine) have the 91 code.
Otherwise, the only difference, I guess, will be in tach signal generation. The 91 have internal connection of IDM pin to TACH (11) pin.
I'm currently drawing a whole internal schematics of my EDIS4, and I will post it soon.
And I'm also building a testbench for whole ignition circuit, so I can test the sensor and edis module out of car - hope to get it ready next week, will post some more info + photos.
and thank for continuos flow of you suggestions, that does cheer one up.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
|
Home
Help
Search
Members
Login
Reply
Send Topic
Print