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Topic: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!) (Read 7398 times) |
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adamn
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adam+n
 
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Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #40 on: Mar 2nd, 2009, 2:34pm » |
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ok, I guess I found the difference between 89 and 91 prefix
as from: http://www.omitec.com/en/support/common-faults/engine-management-systems /ford/
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Lower battery voltage and greater current draw can create an interference condition that causes the EDIS module to trigger too early. The symptom is very similar to the type of slow cranking experienced with 'advanced ignition timing'. The result is a poor or non-starting engine. A revised EDIS module was fitted in production in 1992 and is available as a service replacement.
"
That might be it, so I guess if the 91 module gets swapped with 89 it will work... probably.
and I also have one more question:
following the public available schematics, the PIP signal is wired directly from EDIS to EECV. But there is also a non-public PATS schematics, and my question is (if anyone saw it), is there any connection for PIP (and or SAW) signal from-to PATS module?
I'm going the put a completly new wire directly from EDIS to EECV, ignoring the original one from wiring loom.
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #41 on: Mar 2nd, 2009, 2:56pm » |
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Omitec hints seem to refers to EEC-IV, which is/was only on the DOHC 8, I think. Of course their experience might be valuable in your case.
See: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/star.htm
Worth checking:
- Did you try my suggestionbridging the Engine Run relay contacts 80 - 30, just to rule out one obstacle?
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Did you at anytime inspect your capacitor? If anything can get 'killed' as you say the cap might be it. Some caps even self-heal.
PATS circuitry I have never found anymore; Ford's rather secretive about that, not surprisingly.
Do you have any unsual RED LED indications?
See table in http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pats.htm
HTH,
Ray
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adamn
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adam+n
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Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #42 on: Mar 2nd, 2009, 4:47pm » |
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Ray, seems like you are the only interested 
engine run relay.. hmm... that may be worth trying, sure !
so far, I've connected the scope to +12V pin at edis module, and it shows steady flat 12V (goes down a volt or two when cranking). But so far, EDIS should generate PIP with supply voltage as of 7V (and higher) - but I'm not sure if it does fire when the voltage is that low. Anyway, in my case, I never get less then 10V at EDIS supply pin under any circumst (only when cranking).
But to be honest, I did just measured +12V at coils once, and checked the wiring for continuity.
About that cap - I have not found any. It is just not physically present... It should be connected between +12V rail and ground, but close to coils, to suppress the inductance of wiring, so the EMP is not extended widely, thus minimal RF interference is achieved. If it goes bad, it might go open circuit, with no influence on the whole thing, or it might go short circuit,and then there would be no +12V at coils (but also burned fuse). I will check it anyway, tomorrow.
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #43 on: Mar 2nd, 2009, 5:07pm » |
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Obviously there is an underlimit at which any circuit and EDIs does not function nor fire the coils.
So, to eliminate all variables: have a solid and low-impedance 12V available.
Bridge the Engine Run Relay
Bridge the Fuel Pump Relay
Bridge anything else suspect
All you need mostly is a thin wire from a cable acting as a jumper, just insert that in the relevant contactsocket and replug the relay.
The cap is a necessity, nothing to do with EMP. In every moped ignition, airplane magneto etc., you need a cap to have the L/C combo 'ringing'. Long ago it also used to extinguish the contactspark and thereby reducing RF interference, if that's what you mean.
It's supposed to sit near the front of the engine, below the rim of this shot: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/top%203.jpg
If you mail me your emailaddress asap I will send you a drawing.
BTW, this makes interesting reading for your case as well: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/dohcloom.htm
HTH,
Ray
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adamn
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adam+n
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Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #44 on: Mar 2nd, 2009, 7:55pm » |
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Hi,
I don't have the cap there. Suprisingly, I was driving it for sooooo long with no problem, it started just now (january).
-some offtopic gibber-
Actually, as you say so, the cap is necessary for old-styled ignition, eg. the "hammer" ignition with no electronic control. Then yes, it was absolutly a must, because it really "balanced" the coil so there were no material transfer between the hammer contact pads. If you won't have it there or if it would have wrong capacity, then the hammer contact will burn (metal will transfer from one side to the other).
Now, I guess, that this cap is there just for cutting down the radio interference, caused be the current spikes over long wires, feeding the coil primary winding. The current flow is controlled by EDIS completly, so basicly there is no need for cap there.
See - the cap in scorpio is connected between +12V line and ground. But the cap in hammer ignitions is connected parallel to the switch = on the other side of coil primary winding.
So now the cap is used only as a storage of energy supplying the coils, thus there wont be any big current spikes over the whole wiring back to the battery, but just only far as between the coil and cap.
Oh well, I might be wrong, because this is based all just my thoughts, just trying to justify the cap presence or not-presence, and if it will make a difference.
Hope I will found some original scorpio capacitor somewhere and then test it.
---
Definitelly, what am I going to do>
follow your advice about the good 12V and ground, bring it there using separate wires.
then I'm going to completly rewire the whole edis system wiring.
One step after the other so I will find the reason for all this. There is no way not to know now, whatever the price is.
and also, as I wrote, I'm just now building a testbench for whole edis system, just got the 36-1 wheel from another dismantled engine. Hope to have it all ready in couple a days.
then I will definitelly be able to tell, if the problem is edis or whatever else.
personally, I suspect the wiring, even if I check it all carefully, I just don't trust it...
-edit-
oh about the PATS - I got one black (ordinary) key and one red (master) key. With both keys, the engine cranks.
Also for both keys, I get 4 sec of red LED light (= PATS OK). But still, what if some circuity inside PATS module goes wrong, f.ex. shorting out PIP to 12V (for example !) even if PATS actually don't wont to do it... just wondering. That is why I'm going to rewire it.
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #45 on: Mar 2nd, 2009, 9:50pm » |
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Noticed your emailaddress now; will send you some pics of the cap's location.
With this type of intermittent breakdown there's only 3 ways of dealing with it: eliminate all potential causes, simplify the necessary circuits and Test, test, test.
HTH,
Ray
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adamn
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adam+n
Posts: 34
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Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #46 on: Mar 3rd, 2009, 4:49pm » |
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Hi,
you are definitelly right, I should rebuild the whole circuit = totaly new wiring.
so, I have finally built a whole copy of EDIS4 system, as a test bench (will post pictures on my webpage soon, max. on tomorrow).
I'm using an electric motor driving the 36-1 wheel (at ~1600rpm), then I got CKP mounted so I can move it closer and further, and the EDIS4 module hook up to 12V and oscilloscope.
Tomorrow I will hook up both coils and sparkplugs also, just for curiosity.
results>
all CKPs I have work perfectly, nice 20Vpp output, perfect sine shape with missing tooth recogniseable.
Both EDIS units I currently have - both of them are working perfectly, generating PIP signal.
so I went and stick the EDIS module back into my car, and off it went - started and run, BUT JUST FOR 30 SECONDS !!! then stalled. I can still crank it nicely, but not start. Battery is fully charged.
At least I know that EDIS might not be the cause. Back to the wiring.
PS. relays are probably ok, I had most of them dismantled today and electrically checked.
If I dismatle the green/violet relay, there is a PCB with two small relays on it. If I manually activate the top one, the other one goes on also (for a while, it is driving the fuel pump, and the fuel presure in fuel rail goes to 270kPa). As long as I manually activate that (lower one) fuel pump relay, the fuel pump is pumping and there is a nice pressure in fuel rail.
Also noticed another thing - when the engine is not running and ignition is ON, if I manually short the PIP line to GND, just for a slightest while or even longer (or f.ex. disconnect the connector from EDIS and put it back on) , the EEC reacts (falling edge of PIP I guess) and runs the fuel pump for a second or two.
Can do this "trick" any number of times as I want. It does work even if I can not start the engine (eg. my actual situation).
That means, that PIP wire to EEC simply must be OK, it will not do this anyway.
This is all so confusing...
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adamn
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adam+n
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Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #47 on: Mar 3rd, 2009, 8:03pm » |
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finally,
check out the http://sc.an-d.cz
I posted more quite usefull pics I've made and some usefull oscilograms.
The whole EDIS4 works flawlessly when it is operating as standalone system outside my car.
Hopefully tomorrow I will get to rebuilding my cars wiring.
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #48 on: Mar 3rd, 2009, 8:32pm » |
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Adam, excellent setup, congrats, very thorough approach. You´ve certainly gone a long way.
So, it works in the lab but it fails in the car. What is different in the car environment from the lab?
Ah, there's many upsetting components available and active.
The 30 secs could be a clue. On the lab table you do not turn the ignitionkey so, in the car, what gets activated by the ignitionkey that kills the functionality after 30 secs? Logic errors. The EEC V. PATS.
The EEC, since on the lab table it is not involved, in the car apparently it decides to stop your efforts after 30 secs.
Either it misses a signal OR finds a signal not synced or OFF the programmed range OR incompatible OR not understandable.
However, in that case it it should apply LOS Limited Operation Strategy. NOT stop. Clearly it does not enter LOS but kills functionality. What element of functionality could it cause to kill operation.
When the EEC kills the operation, exactly what voltage or signal goes missing at what point of the circuit.
It must be a combination of real world wrong signals e.g wrongly attached spark cables, a temperature sensor or other element generating a fatal signal for the EEC.
Is the CPS rotten. Does it not produce the rationality signal for cylinder 1 the EEC expects.
The Engine Run Relay, try and bridge contacts 30/87.
What about your Ground distribution, is it OK=or does it produce dirty loopcurrents.
Can spark cables coils etc. be garbled up so as to give the EEC a wrong and fatal picture, which it then wants to end.
Thinking along those lines of logic, could you in the car induce the LOS for the EEC.
Just a thought of logic.
Curious, puzzled,
Ray
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adamn
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adam+n
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Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #49 on: Mar 4th, 2009, 7:32am » |
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yes yes will do
that are those ideas I need !
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adamn
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adam+n
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Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #50 on: Mar 4th, 2009, 4:45pm » |
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* SOLVED *
engine is running again, smooth and fine
I've recorded all data using VE, so I will post the VE log files to my temporary web site.
all stuff chronologically:
* engine is not starting, wtf?, being towed, insurance company paid for it.
* next day it started and went OK for about 500 km
* after that - again - no started, being towed again, payed by myself, grrr
* trying to figure out the problem - found that PIP signal is going missing
* checked the fuel-cutoff loom, it is ok.
* chekced some other wires, power source, all relays... all ok.
* getting another EDIS4 and CKP from brake car, still no joy
* building whole EDIS4 system as a testbench, all components I have seem to be all OK
* putting EDIS4 back to the car, it started and went for about 30 sec, then stalled, still thinking about PATS or etc.
* started to change all wires involved with EDIS4
* first try : wire from pin12 to coil - started but stalled, no more starts.
* second try: wire from pin 10 to another coil and a whole new ground wire to EDIS4 - started and still running, yeah !!!
so the conclusion is:
- the wiring (the loom between EEC, EDIS and engine connector) is the probably reason for all this
- interesting is, that if you measure impedance of this wiring loom, it is all perfectly OK, not short circuits between wires, no shorts to ground etc.
It definitelly needs a high voltage wire (insulation resistance) tester, as there is no way to find that problem out with a ordinary multimeter.
Stil have to rewire the rest, just to be sure.
The ground wire was not necessary, I guess it was only necessary to rewire both wires for the coils.
I'm not going to even imagine what mess could any short circuit between those two wires and the rest in the loom do. Imagine the current spikes etc... eeeee
PS. every other sensor and actuator in the car (except for wiring) is OK, emissions mith be also ok... so:
I guess any of scorpio owners could have (one day) exactly the same situation as I did, and it is not that easy to find out, and component swapping does NOT help at all.
PS. there is no way how to test EDIS system outside the car, if you do not have 36-1 rotating wheel. If you just use piece of metal and move it in front of CKP, the EDIS will start to ignore the impulses very very soon (as it is not consistent as 36-1 wheel input). So if you want to test EDIS, you have to get a 36-1 (rotating). No other way.
hope that helps, I have spent so much time with this, argh.
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #51 on: Mar 4th, 2009, 6:26pm » |
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This is good news -- as I spent some time on it too!
Glad it worked for you. Enjoy your car & toy.
It's for the benefit of all of us and shortens the learning curve on the behaviour of this wonderful car... even after all these years...
Ray
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adamn
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adam+n
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Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #52 on: Mar 5th, 2009, 4:32pm » |
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Hi,
second day of driving, no problems at all, even in rain.
I have got some codes about lack of lambda switching, but it cleared itself very soon (hmm, wiring again, grr) and now I'm DTC clear! hope it will last.
I'm going to rewire all wires I will find, soon, to be safe, just as I will get into the correct mood.
Working as an R&D engineer in radiocommunications, what I get all day is all those 0402 SMD critters, haha, so the car is definitelly a nice pleasant change, not the toy but sometimes mighte be  .
Estimated repair cost for my problem (if including only the really necessary items that were needed to get it running) = about a few Pounds (translated to your currency  .). Good new wires, some clips, shrink-wrap insulation, a little of solder tin, ...
The worst part is that I was not able to track the bad wiring, using just a simple multimeter. I wrote it already, the problems will show up only when there is enough current flowing or with high voltage on it.
yes, yes, it is all about knowing what and where, and that comes on expensive (or not, with all the help here, so hurray to scorpio forum!).
Hopefully someone will use some informations from this thread to help himself.
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #53 on: Mar 5th, 2009, 6:21pm » |
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Ahhhh yes Adam N, this is the problem. The works' never done (Matthew & Son).
Your Scorpio 5/95, was wired with Arnitel wirecoating; later (96) to be changed for safer Raychem coating.
This means you will be smitten with spurious cabletrouble. Strands leaking within wires within cables.
No end to it. 
Glad you've solved it for now and have your toy running.
Ray
PS A Scorpio friend made me aware of the so called S -connections. These are splices so a type of clamps where during production of the loom cables are joined by pressure.
They may start to sputter and protest after10 years of service under high current. Look for S34 (coils & capacitor), S59, S60 (GND distribution!) S32 (3 sensors!) S31 (InJectors! and others in the . pdf I sent you.
Ray
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szinyei
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I'm a YaBB newbie!
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Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!
« Reply #54 on: Dec 31st, 2023, 4:28pm » |
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Dear all,
2023: I can confirm all this. I have just connected the 4 EDIS wires to the ECU (1,2,3,4 to 23, 48, 49, 50) - then it started at all but for a restart, the battery had to be disconnected. Then the two (as above, 10 and 12) directly to the coils (white blue, white green). Beforehand the crankshaft position sensor was already connected /two years ago/ directly to the EDIS (red, brown, etc. high current), two wires - at that time the car could be started at all with this. Now it runs smoothly. (ABS is on - but I will directly connect the LED to the ABS module…ASR is also on, although the car has no ASR…) Best wishes, Csaba
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