Author |
Topic: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads) (Read 2356 times) |
|
shaunskiman
Junior Member
24 valves of cosworth powered ultima ye ba ye ba
Posts: 77
|
 |
BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« on: Aug 11th, 2005, 9:13am » |
 Quote  Modify
|
Hi all,
Once again my pride and joy (pain) is back in the garage for yet another radiator, the last one was fitted at the end of March 05 at a cost of just under £400 and yesterday it burst at the seams on the n/s bottom of the rad, it was recovered back to the garage that did the work last time and when the rad was removed from the car it was found to have Ballooned. The garage were trying to say it must be head gasket etc but found no problems and after a heated telephone call to their supplier they are getting it replaced as a faulty part  I have read the info on the site about this problem and have taken Mr Holmes advise and asked the garage to change the stat at the same time, I wonder if this will really work  I had only covered 3000 miles on the last rad fitted. Is there really no real reason why this happens !
cheers Shaun
|
|
 IP Logged |
|
|
|
martin_rowe
Full Member
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 879
|
|
Re: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« Reply #1 on: Aug 11th, 2005, 9:27am » |
Quote Modify
|
seems a real problem, particlarly on the 24v, make sure pressure cap is replaced also.
|
|
IP Logged |
Rally Drivers Do It Sideways
|
|
|
Highlander
Moderator
Expert
13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
Posts: 8244
|
|
Re: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« Reply #2 on: Aug 11th, 2005, 11:30am » |
Quote Modify
|
The thermostat on the 24v is now reckoned to be the most likely cause of ballooning radiators causing a high pressure burst through the radiator which doesnt give the pressure relief valve time to operate, but you might have to wait a while for one though.
Baz waited for months for his.
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/balloon.htm
"That in some circumstances - not common I agree but nonetheless occasional - circumstances and a weak thermostat conspires to overheat a part of the 24V coolant system. With insufficient flow the high temperature overcomes the pressure of the coolant and a plug of steam is created. Since steam is one hundred times greater in volume than the liquid this sends a shock wave of very high pressure through the system, sufficient to balloon the narrow radiator vanes. The radiator nor any of the pipes give way, however, so there is no outward sign, while the now huge pressure forces the steam to return to coolant again."
Holmes finished his glass and put it down carefully.
"But Holmes, why does the pressure cap not let go?" Watson asked.
"A good question, Watson. I can only conjecture here. It is probable that the hydraulic shock is so sudden that the damage to the radiator vanes occurs before the pressure cap can react. Bear in mind that the radiator is connected with broad pipes to the hottest part of the engine, while the header tank has a very narrow pipe, so the hydraulic pressure in the header tank would not be the same in any case."
|
|
IP Logged |
on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:I give up !  Too much for an old boy! |
|
|
|
|
Baz
Moderator
Senior Member
S Reg. 1998 24v Cosworth S2.9 COS (Deceased)
Posts: 4009
|
|
Re: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« Reply #3 on: Aug 11th, 2005, 5:30pm » |
Quote Modify
|
I waited 6 months to be precise so you may get through a few more radiators in that time
Baz
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
SaveTheNight
Senior Member
I can resist anything ...except temptation !!
 
Posts: 1961
|
|
Re: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« Reply #4 on: Aug 11th, 2005, 10:25pm » |
Quote Modify
|
it's not too bad at the moment ... thermostats are readily available ... STN
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Baz
Moderator
Senior Member
S Reg. 1998 24v Cosworth S2.9 COS (Deceased)
Posts: 4009
|
|
Re: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« Reply #5 on: Aug 12th, 2005, 12:27am » |
Quote Modify
|
Probably because they waited until there were a few of us that needed them and then made a load. Still made me wait 6 months though!
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
shaunskiman
Junior Member
24 valves of cosworth powered ultima ye ba ye ba
Posts: 77
|
|
Re: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« Reply #6 on: Aug 12th, 2005, 7:33pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Happy Days are here again 
I THINK
I got the wheels back this afternoon not with a new rad I found, when I got home and had a look I saw marks on the rad that suggested it was a recore job so on the phone I got, to be told that Plymouth radiators had recored it with a heavy duty core I was also told not to boot it (Their Words) when cold Does this mean I've to take it easy in the winter
The Thermostat was replaced also at a cost of £50.90p + VAT.
Heres hoping that it will be the last time I have the radiator changed.....
Cheers Shaun I......
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
craig
Guest
|
|
Re: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« Reply #7 on: Aug 12th, 2005, 7:37pm » |
Quote Modify
 Remove
|
Hmmmm..recored,didn't baz say that wouldn't last long ?
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Baz
Moderator
Senior Member
S Reg. 1998 24v Cosworth S2.9 COS (Deceased)
Posts: 4009
|
|
Re: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« Reply #8 on: Aug 12th, 2005, 8:31pm » |
Quote Modify
|
It all depends how good the recore is. I got through 3 recores until the one I have off STN (Dont forget the receipt Bill!!) We are now assuming that if the rad and stat are changed, the problem should not occur
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
bigmaltwo
Newbie
Is there such a thing as a cold vindaloo???
Posts: 48
|
|
Re: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« Reply #9 on: Aug 13th, 2005, 3:34am » |
Quote Modify
|
seems to me that if there is enough pressure in the cooling system to 'baloon' the rad, it must almost certainly be the head gasket.
the cooling system wouldn't / couldn't generate enough pressure to do that (bearing in mind that the cap should 'blow' at about 13-15 psi) without it boiling (and the associated noises!)
ask garage to do a 'sniffer' test on header tank. any signs of impending head gasket failure will either change coulour of test medium, or show on gas anylyser.
good luck.
|
|
IP Logged |
WHY ME GOD? OH WHY ME?!!!
|
|
|
Highlander
Moderator
Expert
13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
Posts: 8244
|
|
Re: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« Reply #10 on: Aug 13th, 2005, 11:34am » |
Quote Modify
|
Head gasket seems to be idea that most garages put forward (quite rightly so, as it is a possibility) but the ballooned rads only seem to affect the 24v and I have heard no one say they had a ballooned rad that was eventually traced to a head gasket problem.
Plus if it were a head gasket then the new rad would surely balloon as soon as the thermostat opened on the initial start up. which they dont do.
I'm not too familiar with the cooling system layout on the 24v but Would a pressure build up behind the thermostat be able to be relieved via the pressure release cap if the thermostat didnt open or is this only possible once the thermostat has opened and the pressure has "escaped" to the expansion tank "via" the radiator?
|
|
IP Logged |
on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
|
|
|
|
martin_rowe
Full Member
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 879
|
|
Re: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« Reply #11 on: Aug 13th, 2005, 12:25pm » |
Quote Modify
|
thermostat dos'nt hold pressure, only stops circulation, which is provided by the water pump. water pump is not so much a pump, but provides a flow, obviously there is an issue with the 24v cooling system, all the scorps have the same pressure cap, in fact the cap is common to many fords now, the 12v dos'nt seem top suffer from the ballooning problem, even though the basic cyl block,& w/pump are the same, the problem may be compounded by the fact that the rad is quite long, easier to blow up a long ballon than a short one, I have had to replace rads on all my 24vs, one rad only lasted 2 mths, was replaced by my supplier, that rad has now done a further 20k. I think if you can get one, the alloy cored units are better, most replacements have copper cores. STN has probably done a bit more research on this subject.
|
|
IP Logged |
Rally Drivers Do It Sideways
|
|
|
Baz
Moderator
Senior Member
S Reg. 1998 24v Cosworth S2.9 COS (Deceased)
Posts: 4009
|
|
Re: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« Reply #12 on: Aug 13th, 2005, 12:51pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Mal,
definately not the headgasket in either of the cars I have hd rads changed on. First one got through 3 radiators as has this one now. Both have been extensively checked for gasket issues and anything else that was a possibility....all drew a blank. One rad replacement lasted 2 months, I took a rad off a scrapper which hadn't balooned at all and it looked pretty old and that lasted 4 months got one off Danny R which hadn't balooned and although it has a slight leak elsewhere it still hasn't balloned even up until I changed it for one of STN's specials!! So there is no direct link as far as I am concerned with the rads balloning and the head gasket
Baz
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Eric_R
Administrator
Cosworth Owner 1998 - 2006 & site co-founder
Posts: 1792
|
|
Re: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« Reply #13 on: Aug 13th, 2005, 4:43pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Aug 13th, 2005, 3:34am, bigmaltwo wrote:seems to me that if there is enough pressure in the cooling system to 'baloon' the rad, it must almost certainly be the head gasket.
the cooling system wouldn't / couldn't generate enough pressure to do that (bearing in mind that the cap should 'blow' at about 13-15 psi) without it boiling (and the associated noises!)
ask garage to do a 'sniffer' test on header tank. any signs of impending head gasket failure will either change coulour of test medium, or show on gas anylyser.
good luck. |
|
BigMal,
Yes, this is the problem of taking the usual guess - and end up forking out for new cylinder head gaskets (Kit is £500 a pop, plus labour) and have another radiator go a month later !!
Have you read http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/balloon.htm?
The problem is clearly stated there - the rads balloon with no other symptom and in every case mechanics have first suspected the CH gaskets, but CO and HC checks have not found a problem. I suspect that at least one owner has paid for this work - unnecessarily. 
And there are no other symptoms usually connected with overheating - no bubbling, or steam gushing out, or even a high temperature reading. The first that the owners have known about it is when they have spotted the ballooning - while if a cylinder firing event is open to the coolant system there is very definitely a symptom 
I'd point out that steam can create enormous pressure - imagine the dead weight of a steam locomotive at rest and watch one of those huge wheels start to move - and it can quickly revert back to liquid if the pressure is high enough.
The facts are there. It is not a CH gasket leak. Do you have another theory?
|
|
IP Logged |
After a Cosworth, anything else is just ... ordinary
|
|
|
Highlander
Moderator
Expert
13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
Posts: 8244
|
|
Re: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« Reply #14 on: Aug 14th, 2005, 12:27am » |
Quote Modify
|
Ok got some Radiator questions 
The small hose on the top of the 24v radiator that goes to the expansion tank.. was it added to aid pressure reduction?
Why arent they on the other engine types
Has anyone with the ballooning rad problem checked to see if this pipe is blocked? either totally or partially?
Would a larger/modified pipe from this area possibly help?
Or pressure relief valves somewhere on the radiator inlet and outlet hoses?
And what causes such a high pressure scenario to cause this ballooning?
Thats it for now 
|
|
IP Logged |
on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
|
|
|
|
bigmaltwo
Newbie
Is there such a thing as a cold vindaloo???
Posts: 48
|
|
Re: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« Reply #15 on: Aug 14th, 2005, 12:48am » |
Quote Modify
|
ok, message received and understood!
as I see it, the only way a rad can baloon is due to excessive pressure build up. (a baloon doesnt blow itself up (unless subject to a vacuum!)) . If the thermostat was playing up, it wouldn't present itself until the engine was hot enough to boil the coolant surrounding the block itself (as it couldn't circulate through the rad').
unless the cap on the expansion tank is faulty, any excess pressure MUST vent itself via the cap itself! So what is left?
it must be excessive pressure within the cooling system itself. what can generate this kind of pressure (and yes, I do realise how much pressure steam can generate!!), BUT...there should not be steam in the cooling system as most are designed to run at slightly over 100 deg C (due to the pressure maintained due to the valve in the cap).
Ther are only two sources of pressure within the cooling system itself, one being the boiling of coolant generating steam due to overheating (for various reasons), or 'leakage' of combustion / cylinder pressure into the cooling system. I will leave this to the immagination of 'readers' as to where this might come from!
The cap 'should' be the weakest link, and vent excess pressure to atmosphere, but doesn't always. So what's left?
I would always suggest that a 'accurate' test is made (as I stated previously) before going down the route of changing head gasket/s etc.
That is of course unless 24v radiators are made of very soft material (which I doubt!!).
So, in a nutshell. There seems to be excess pressure within the cooling system. Anyone know where else it can come from?
good luck and best wishes.
mal.
|
|
IP Logged |
WHY ME GOD? OH WHY ME?!!!
|
|
|
SaveTheNight
Senior Member
I can resist anything ...except temptation !!
Posts: 1961
|
|
Re: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« Reply #16 on: Aug 14th, 2005, 10:07am » |
Quote Modify
|
well said Mal .. I have researched < and still am doing > this subject ..for quite a long time .. not just for the Scorp but previously for Sierra Cossies and the only other car I see it on .. Fiat Uno Turbos .. I have no doubt that Erics " thermal shock " theory is accurate and as usual with Eric ..it is based on quite comprehensive research and plain facts .. The problem does need a Physics or Scientific clear answer ..as I find that no automotive radiator " expert " or reconditioner will be able to offer ANY sensible or definitive description .. regarding Highlanders ? re the return pipe from the rad to the header tank ..this is never the cause on the 24v ..< although the Sierra < which also had this pipe > did used to blow the header tank water when this pipe frequently blocked at the small bore header tank inlet ..which held an even smaller bore strengthening tube inside the inlet tube ..
I agree though with Mal that Erics description < although perfectly clear in "effect" has never been clear in "cause" ..however .. Eric has enough to do having advised the cure < until a member who has fitted both rad AND stat then balloons ...oops.. the rad ..not the member > without having to state a definitive cause ..
The definitive answer will be found in the heating and ventilation or boiler industry I imagine < if any member has a contact > ..as they are well versed in what they call " water hammer effect " or thermal shock and it's cause .. it does seem strange that the apparent " instant problem " with the thermostat doesn't actually require and action and some rads once ballooned don't continue to balloon every day or week until bursting .. why not ? .. no doubt the stat doesn't suddenly correct itself .. one also has to remember that the stat is quite a rare arrangement being " hung " and " t-pieced " in brass ..with three hoses of different sizes .. one turbulent and from the water pump ..one too small and dangerously positioned through the 24v cylinder head and subject externally to intense temp changes and the bottom hose which changes direction with two 90 degree angles .. hmmm ....
lastly I used to have very similar problems with Chevvies .. Fords and Jensens < Chrysler > with bottom hoses " sucking in under acceleration .. the rubber was not strong enough and most Yanks had springs inside the hoses to prevent this < until the springs rotted out > .. If the Cossie hose did this then that would cause the sudden steam creation .. but my research doesn't back this up ... oohhh ...i'm " rambling " again ...catch ya all laterrrrrrrrrr .... STN
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Eric_R
Administrator
Cosworth Owner 1998 - 2006 & site co-founder
Posts: 1792
|
|
Re: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« Reply #17 on: Aug 14th, 2005, 1:54pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Blimey, you two are hard work
We've established that many rads have ballooned. Work through the logic again. If the ballooning were due to the system design itself then EVERY 24V rad would have ballooned because the same fault would have been present on every 24V engine. Mine hasn't presented this fault after 120K miles and 9 years.
If the problem was caused by the pressure cap, then every Scorpio would have failed because they all have the same cap. Ditto any problem with the expansion tank, hoses or radiator itself - if these were the problem then every single 24V rad must have ballooned by now.
But they haven't - ergo, it is not the cap, tank, radiator or pipes.
What is left? Er - the thermostat. We all know that thermostats don't last forever - they become 'lazy', opening too late or sticking open and sometime if they lose the expansion medium they stay closed - with disastrous results most of us have experienced at some time or another. What's more, the thermostat type, position and modus operandii is different to all the other Scorpios. If a single DOHC or diesel radiator had ballooned we could rule this out - but they haven't. EVERY SINGLE ballooned rad has been on a 24V.
Of course we should check out the coolant for signs of CO or HC and make sure the CH gaskets haven't gone - this is only common sense. What we mustn't do is shrug and say, like BigMal, 'Well, it must be the head gaskets' and lash out a £1000 or so to get them done.
Look at how much this is costing our owners - radiators expanding all over the country like popcorn at £400 a time, being replaced only to pop again, others forking out their hard-earned on unnecessary cylinder head work as well as a new rad -
The exact mechanism for this event is not absolutely clear - it probably needs a combination of a particular stat weakness, plus ambient temps, plus engine load and air speed. It may be a hydraulic shock effect if the thrmostat delays too long and then pops open suddenly, a plug of steam on a hot spot, or a combination of these. These separate components would not be present all the time and this would explain why some replacement rads have lasted weeks or even months before ballooning again. If the stat failed shut and you got the burbling noises and half the coolant suddenly dumped itself through the pressure cap you wouldn't have any problem with diagnosis (I hope). With logic and reason it seems crystal clear to me that this syndrome is caused by a faulty thermstat - just not being so dramatic in showing it!
Some thermostats have been changed for a few months now and not one radiator has ballooned afterwards. Time will tell - but in the meantime IMO we should get beyond the knee-jerk 'it's the gaskets' response and advise a stat change as a matter of course in order to save our owners' some serious cash.
|
|
IP Logged |
After a Cosworth, anything else is just ... ordinary
|
|
|
SaveTheNight
Senior Member
I can resist anything ...except temptation !!
Posts: 1961
|
|
Re: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« Reply #18 on: Aug 14th, 2005, 2:45pm » |
Quote Modify
|
er ... not sure why I am hard work Eric ? .. especially as I agree with you < as my post makes perfectly clear > .. my position however is different from yours as I do need to listen to all facts and suggestions in the pursuit of making rads that don't balloon < even despite lazy stats > and any system change or valves than can prevent the occurrence in the first place or in any eventuality ..therefore saving members money and anguish ... rather like this site .." the pursuit of excellence " .. and are you suggesting that 24v owners change stats every year for example to prevent this ?? ..if so then it may be worth the stat advice sitting alongside the battery cover advice on the home page ? ..as the results are almost as inconvenient and costly ...
incidently.. how many stats you have replaced on yours in the trouble free nine years ? ...cheers Eric ..... STN
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Snoopy
Administrator
Very old.BAD tempered and missing friends.
Posts: 6278
|
|
Re: BLOOMING (Ballooning Rads)
« Reply #19 on: Aug 14th, 2005, 7:57pm » |
Quote Modify
|
I read with interest the problems that arise with the 24v ballooned rads and I too have a theory which in principle is similar to Erics, I think its a pocket of superheated water .
Water behaves very strangely when heated to temperatures in excess of 100C and its critical temperature of 374 C under pressure.
I am quite sure that the balloned rads are a combination of circumstances that would have to be reproduced in a Laboratory to confirm.
It only need a small hot spot to form in the cooling system near to the combustion chamber for a pocket of super heated water to form and then if it moves slightly or a particle of rust enters that pocket the effect is dramatic.
It is actually an explosion.
If this where to happen in the cooling system then the pressure release on the radiator header tank would not have time to react and the rad would take the full pressure of the explosion and give way.
Ask any one who has heated liquid in the Microwave only to have it 'explode' all over them when putting in a strirring object or a measure off sugar.
the effects are well documented with analytical research to back up the theory.
|
|
IP Logged |
HELP the FORUM.Please DONATE
|
|
|
|
Home
Help
Search
Members
Login
Reply
Send Topic
Print