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Topic: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start) (Read 2239 times) |
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Kjetil S
Senior Member
2001 BMW 520iat
Posts: 1419
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Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
« on: Nov 2nd, 2005, 7:24pm » |
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Hello.
My 1995 2.0 16v suddenly stopped starting. It has been parked for about a week since the last time it started.
Lately, it hasn't idled well (idle was dropping, almost until it stopped, then racing up again to around 2000rpm, and then dropping down towards almost stopping again, continuing till it would heat up, then it would settle down).
It is cranking now, and it seems like it's almost starting, but not quite. Spark plugs were changed not long ago.
I checked ALL the fuses in the main and auxillary fuseboxes, plus every fuse I could see underneath the dashboard, all were good.
I used the instrument reset function to check my battery voltage. It reads 12.2V while connected to a charger, and fluctuates between 10.5V and 11.5V when cranking. Is this normal?
The gas pump seems to start. I can hear a buzzing sound, coming from the rear, for about a sec after the ignition is turned on.
Any ideas?
Edit: Forgot to mention that the poor idling is most likely a faulty EGR. Atleast that is what my FMD tells me. I have a new valve, but I haven't fitted it yet.
Just thought I should mention the poor idle-problem, in case it could be related.
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Paul B
Senior Member
'98 24V Ultima saloon
Posts: 2442
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Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
« Reply #1 on: Nov 2nd, 2005, 10:08pm » |
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Have a look here if you haven't done so already....
www.fordscorpio.co.uk/faultfinds
There may be something there that you haven't checked.
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Two hundred & seven horses and only one jockey!
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Kjetil S
Senior Member
2001 BMW 520iat
Posts: 1419
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Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
« Reply #2 on: Nov 2nd, 2005, 10:19pm » |
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WILL NOT START
Was battery disconnected?
NO:
1. Check the PATS led on top of dashboard. Is it flashing a code?
Nope, but then, it never has flashed anything.
2. Check Injection Cut-Off switch in boot
Checked, ok
3. Check Fuses F16 and F17 in main fuse box
Checked, ok
4. Check F31, F34, F37 and F42 in auxiliary fuse box
Checked, ok
5. Check Relay R17 and R19 in Auxiliary fuse box
How?
6. Get OBD reading - suspect CKP or CMP sensors
Did try to get an OBD2-reading once, it didn't work. I suspect it to be incompatible..
7. Check main fuse box for water contamination
Checked, _seems_ to be dry. All covers fitted properly.
Engine turns over but does not fire?
YES:
1. Check fuses F31, F34, F37, F42
Checked, ok
2. OBD check for faulty CKP sensor and/or CMP sensor
OBD2-lead doesn't seem to be compatible. Any way to check them manually?
(minor edit..)
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Paul B
Senior Member
'98 24V Ultima saloon
Posts: 2442
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Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
« Reply #3 on: Nov 2nd, 2005, 10:42pm » |
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on Nov 2nd, 2005, 10:19pm, kskjon wrote:5. Check Relay R17 and R19 in Auxiliary fuse box
How?
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I think the only way is to swap it for a known good one.
on Nov 2nd, 2005, 10:19pm, kskjon wrote:6. Get OBD reading - suspect CKP or CMP sensors
Did try to get an OBD2-reading once, it didn't work. I suspect it to be incompatible..
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I thought the only model not compatible was the 2.9 12v. Can't be certain about that though.
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Kjetil S
Senior Member
2001 BMW 520iat
Posts: 1419
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Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
« Reply #4 on: Nov 2nd, 2005, 10:49pm » |
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on Nov 2nd, 2005, 10:42pm, Paul B wrote:
I think the only way is to swap it for a known good one.
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Okay, so there isn't any notes on how the relays should operate? Ex: 12V on conn 1 should give 5V on conn 2 etc?
on Nov 2nd, 2005, 10:42pm, Paul B wrote:
I thought the only model not compatible was the 2.9 12v. Can't be certain about that though.
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I have an early '95 (still frogeyed, though), and I seem to remember reading somewhere that EARLY models only had the EEC IV fitted.. which wasn't OBD2-compatible.. but I may be wrong. Atleast the OBD2-lead I tested didn't work with my laptop. (USB SERIAL OBD2-lead, connected via USB -> Serial link SERIAL -> USB link, Vehicle Explorer)
Edit:
Serial OBD2.. not USB.. and I don't have a Serial conn on my laptop...
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David_South_West
Full Member
24V............ .Goodness
Posts: 188
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Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
« Reply #5 on: Nov 3rd, 2005, 12:23am » |
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12.2 volts at battery when connected to charger seems a bit low
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Thunderchild
Full Member
My other car's an Aprilia
Posts: 199
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Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
« Reply #6 on: Nov 3rd, 2005, 6:48am » |
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Got to agree with David. The battery seems very low. These beasts are very sensitive to low battery voltage and while the engine will turn over, there isn't enough juice to get a decent spark. Either fully charge the battery or replace it with a known good one.
HTH
Thunderchild
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Kjetil S
Senior Member
2001 BMW 520iat
Posts: 1419
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Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
« Reply #7 on: Nov 3rd, 2005, 7:55am » |
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Thanks alot everybody!
I hope the battery will be fully charged when I come home tonight, if not, it's probably time for a battery swap.
I could "loan" the battery of my brothers vectra, and hope that battery is powerful enough for my beast 
Too bad I won't be home until late. I want my beloved car running 
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Eric_R
Administrator
Cosworth Owner 1998 - 2006 & site co-founder
Posts: 1792
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Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
« Reply #8 on: Nov 3rd, 2005, 11:34pm » |
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Jon,
Your 1995 16V is definitely OBDII compliant. If the OBD lead didn't work it was an issue with the USB/Serial interface rather than the lead itself - other owners have had problems with these.
It's worth bearing in mind that the engine has 1 second to fire when the engine is turned on the starter - the EECV checks for a firing event after 1 second and if the engine isn't running it turns off the Injectors to prevent damage to the washcoat on the catalysts, so turning the engine on the starter for longer than the 1 second is wasting the battery.
I agree that the voltage is too low. This can cause problems with relays as well as the EECV so get the battery charged fully first and see it that improves it. The new Cadmium batteries can fail literally overnight and cause havoc with the electrics.
The EGR valve could also be causing the problem. If it is sticking open it is admitting unmetered air into the inlet system and could weaken the mixture when cold, and also cause a racing idle. Turning the engine excessively may have flattened the battery, but a good one should be able to take that.
If you can hear the fuel pump running when you first turn on the ignition than the fuel pump relay is working.
If the starting problems cease then change the battery for a new one. If the problems persist with a new battery then I strongly suggest getting the EGR valve replaced asap.
If that still does not improve things then check the Fuel Cutoff Loom and get the OBD read, because the wiring may be causing an intermittent CKP or CMP signal.
HTH
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Kjetil S
Senior Member
2001 BMW 520iat
Posts: 1419
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Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
« Reply #9 on: Nov 4th, 2005, 12:37am » |
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on Nov 3rd, 2005, 11:34pm, Eric_R wrote:Jon,
Your 1995 16V is definitely OBDII compliant. If the OBD lead didn't work it was an issue with the USB/Serial interface rather than the lead itself - other owners have had problems with these. |
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I should probably have another try with an older laptop then (with onboard serial port)
on Nov 3rd, 2005, 11:34pm, Eric_R wrote:
It's worth bearing in mind that the engine has 1 second to fire when the engine is turned on the starter - the EECV checks for a firing event after 1 second and if the engine isn't running it turns off the Injectors to prevent damage to the washcoat on the catalysts, so turning the engine on the starter for longer than the 1 second is wasting the battery.
I agree that the voltage is too low. This can cause problems with relays as well as the EECV so get the battery charged fully first and see it that improves it. The new Cadmium batteries can fail literally overnight and cause havoc with the electrics.
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Haven't had time to do anything more today (since I left at 9am and came home at 1:30am), but I seriously suspect the battery to be dead (or soon will be).
on Nov 3rd, 2005, 11:34pm, Eric_R wrote:
The EGR valve could also be causing the problem. If it is sticking open it is admitting unmetered air into the inlet system and could weaken the mixture when cold, and also cause a racing idle. Turning the engine excessively may have flattened the battery, but a good one should be able to take that.
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Won't argue with you on that one
on Nov 3rd, 2005, 11:34pm, Eric_R wrote:
If you can hear the fuel pump running when you first turn on the ignition than the fuel pump relay is working.
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I think I can hear the fuel pump. There is a short buzzing sound originating from the rear when I turn on the ignition. This sound stops after 0.5-1 sec.
on Nov 3rd, 2005, 11:34pm, Eric_R wrote:
If the starting problems cease then change the battery for a new one. If the problems persist with a new battery then I strongly suggest getting the EGR valve replaced asap.
If that still does not improve things then check the Fuel Cutoff Loom and get the OBD read, because the wiring may be causing an intermittent CKP or CMP signal.
HTH
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Thanks, will do that!
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Kjetil S
Senior Member
2001 BMW 520iat
Posts: 1419
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Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
« Reply #10 on: Nov 4th, 2005, 12:20pm » |
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It has been raining hard all day, so I haven't been able to do a battery swap yet. Hopefully it will be dryer when i come home from work.
After a few days of charging, the battery now reads 12.5-12.6V just after turning on the ignition.. but after a few seconds, it was falling slowly towards 12.0.
Took about a minute, then it was 12.0... I think i can say the battery is dead? (Edit: Keep in mind: this was with the charger connected)
Btw.. this is probably a stupid question, but what is the fan-like noise coming from the engine (or atleast the front of the car) when I turn on the ignition? It's not the cooling fans, I've checked those. Some sort of pump maybe?
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scorpio_man
Administrator
Ford Kuga awd
Posts: 5654
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Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
« Reply #11 on: Nov 4th, 2005, 12:28pm » |
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hi there
could be the heater fans  they come on with the ignition unless you turn the fan (auto) dial to off.
hth
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Simmo
Administrator
I'm an OAP !
Posts: 5508
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Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
« Reply #13 on: Nov 4th, 2005, 8:04pm » |
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Surely it has to be one or the other !!!!?.Did they make a Scorp without either ,
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Now I'm an OAP
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Kjetil S
Senior Member
2001 BMW 520iat
Posts: 1419
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Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
« Reply #14 on: Nov 4th, 2005, 9:12pm » |
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It has three knobs.. Fan speed (+ resirc toggle), heat/cold adj and the "location toggle"..
None of them are marked with A/C..
Works just like on my old scorp ('87 granada CL)
Remember, this is one of the odd GLX'es which were sold in Norway.. It doesn't match with any of the trim levels sold in the UK..
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howiedintheplace
Senior Member
Based near Evesham
Posts: 1194
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Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
« Reply #15 on: Nov 4th, 2005, 10:49pm » |
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It sounds like you have a Mk3 Granada Scorpio interior Well the heater is at least.
Is your car a bug eyed Scorpio or a Mk3 Granada Scorpio 
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Dave
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Kjetil S
Senior Member
2001 BMW 520iat
Posts: 1419
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Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
« Reply #16 on: Nov 4th, 2005, 11:05pm » |
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It is the "frog eyed" one.. (And I KNOW the difference.. I used to own what you call a mk3 Granada ) But as I said.. I've found the trim levels to be completely different in Norway opposed to the UK..
Don't think there was a trim level in the UK fitting my equipment list..
Traction Control
2x airbag
Front electric windows
Front fog-lights
Rear fog-lights
Headlight washer jets
High-mounted rear stop light
Electrically operated and heated door mirrors
Delayed courtesy lights
Yet it lacks a lot of the stuff included in the Ghia.. And it doesn't have a single complete "option pack" for the executive.. So atleast from what I can find, it is a weird mix of most trim levels.
Called GLX over here..
And btw.. the Ghia was the top trim level over here.. Being (atleast close to) equal the Ultima level in the UK.
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howiedintheplace
Senior Member
Based near Evesham
Posts: 1194
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Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
« Reply #17 on: Nov 4th, 2005, 11:39pm » |
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kskjon
Sorry mate had to ask as some things don't sound right.
Do you have any pics of the dash, heater or car
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Dave
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Highlander
Moderator
Expert
13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
Posts: 8244
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Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
« Reply #19 on: Nov 4th, 2005, 11:42pm » |
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He's still not convinced! lol
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:I give up !  Too much for an old boy! |
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