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Topic: Yikes!!! 20mpg from a diesel :-o (Read 902 times) |
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sector-9
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No scorpio anymore
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Yikes!!! 20mpg from a diesel :-o
« on: Mar 20th, 2006, 11:00pm » |
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It appears my diesel scorpion it doing less mpg than the Rover 820Si it replaced! (the main reason for buying the diesel as I think the Rover is better built).
When I bought it a fortnight ago the air filter was a yucky black colour and obviously hadn't been changed for yonks. Of course it promptly got a new one and the tyres are pumped up fully - I even ran some injector cleaner through it but it still seems to be a dieselaholic. It's also incredibly noisy at idle (though quietens down a lot above about 1500rpm).
This isn't funny. Maybe I should ditch the diseasel and keep the 820 being as nobody wants it; at least that managed mid twenties...
Darren
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mazzy_j
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Re: Yikes!!! 20mpg from a diesel :-o
« Reply #1 on: Mar 21st, 2006, 8:55am » |
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20mpg What is the performance of it like? I remember reading that these engines need a lot of injector advance to get them going (diesel equivalent of a choke), maybe this has stuck on and so is over fueling??
Havn't personally used them but you could contact the people below as they specialise in the VM engine:
http://ccgi.vmspecialists.plus.com/release/services.php?id=245681920a7bd 7441fc2020af8b
Quote:| It's also incredibly noisy at idle |
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I think that's a normal diesel Scorpio thing, mine sounds like a crosss between a london cab and a tank at idle. Why Ford put that engine (dating back to pushrod times) in their top of the range car is anyones guess.
Matt
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sector-9
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No scorpio anymore
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Re: Yikes!!! 20mpg from a diesel :-o
« Reply #2 on: Mar 21st, 2006, 11:03pm » |
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Performance is fine and it accelerates quite well (leaving a trail of smoke of course), but it's only done 76000 miles from new so I was expecting a fair few more miles for the fuel.
If I remember rightly, these injector pumps are mechanical with a couple of electrical bits - one of them being an advance? Hopefully if I can find which one it is I might be able to unplug it and see if it makes any difference; though of course if it is physically stuck on then it won't!
Somebody else also said to change the fuel filter (?!) and I ought to check the EGR valve too.
Just seems to be one thing after another with this thing, it'll be getting a new gearbox switch and some dash bulbs at the weekend but I don't know how much more my wallet can take...
Darren
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sector-9
Senior Member
No scorpio anymore
Posts: 1069
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Re: Yikes!!! 20mpg from a diesel :-o
« Reply #3 on: Mar 27th, 2006, 10:37pm » |
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Ummm, which bit controls the advance? I know it'll be somewhere on the pump but I'm not sure where and I can't afford to be without the car for more than about a day so I've not started dismantling it to look.
Must say that finding information about this engine isn't easy, nor for that matter the Bosch VP20 fuel pump fitted. Could really do with a detailed description from somewhere of all the system components and what they do, including the ECU. Might buy the Haynes manual on diesel engines and hope it covers one or both of the above!
Darren
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Simmo
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Re: Yikes!!! 20mpg from a diesel :-o
« Reply #4 on: Mar 28th, 2006, 5:27am » |
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Have you read this?.Perhaps it might help.http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/replacemap.htm. You could also try an internet search on Bosch VP20. It seems to have been fitted to a number of cars.
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mazzy_j
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Re: Yikes!!! 20mpg from a diesel :-o
« Reply #5 on: Mar 28th, 2006, 7:55am » |
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Trying to think what i could be  what reg/year is it? You could try cleaning the largish engine loom multiplug connectors (right side of engine bay) as they could be dirty/causing a short, and hence confusing the fuel pump.
Try looking on Ebay for VM diesel engine workshop manuals, seen a couple on there for the old shape scorpio diesel (which has virtually the same engine) which could shed some more light on the Fuel Pump.
When you say its smoking, what colour smoke is it?
Matt
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sector-9
Senior Member
No scorpio anymore
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Re: Yikes!!! 20mpg from a diesel :-o
« Reply #6 on: Mar 28th, 2006, 7:43pm » |
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Thanks for the link; however my car must be one of the very early ones (1995/M) and it doesn't have a MAP sensor - at least if it does it's not in the location shown! Mine also doesn't have a MAF sensor. I think both of those were only fitted to the later diesels (i.e. 125BHP instead of 115BHP), along with drive-by-wire control.
I have tried searching for the VP20 pump and founds lots of references to it on Peugeots, including wiring diagrams, but no actual pictures of the unit for identifying components and locations.
I'm beginning to wonder if it maybe something as simple as the coolant temperature sensor; after all the EGR valve doesn't seem to do anything and after reading up on the Escort diesel engines it will only come into play when the engine has warmed up - that and possibly too much advance (which I think would make it knock more than usual) would both suggest it as a possibility. Does anyone have any data for this sensor? I tried buying a new one from the local part co. (usually only a few pounds so may as well replace anyway) but they don't list one and I don't want to pay FMD prices (who'll almost certainly have to order it in like everything else) unless I can be sure it's kaput.
As for smoking, normal running is fine but if you floor it there's quite a bit of smog left behind! Not too worried about this as even some newish cars I've followed have done the same when they booted it.
Darren
P.S.
I've just bought a Haynes manual for the Vx Frontera - this actually includes details for the VM diesel engine as it was fitted for the last two years of the Frontera's life. Hopefully this may shed some light on the subject, but it appears that they too used the full electronic control (like later Scorpios), whereas mine is only partial.
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mazzy_j
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Re: Yikes!!! 20mpg from a diesel :-o
« Reply #7 on: Mar 29th, 2006, 7:38am » |
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So long as it isn't blue smoke and its black it should mean the turbo is in ok condition. Thinking about the turbo, maybe the 'on-boost fueling' is stuck on constantly, which should only come into play when the turbo is on boost to provide more fuel in relation to the increase in air going into the engine.
Mine is the 115bhp version without all the electric control and it has a version of the sensor pictured in that link (it has an anodized blue colour base), does yours have anything at all in that location (next to the washer bottle)?
Matt
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sector-9
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No scorpio anymore
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Re: Yikes!!! 20mpg from a diesel :-o
« Reply #8 on: Mar 29th, 2006, 8:54pm » |
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Mine also has the thing with the blue circular bit on the bottom. It's the EGR control solenoid but even though it could be faulty (hence EGR valve not opening) it shouldn't have any effect on consumption as the valve is closed by default.
It could possibly be the boost sensing valve like you say, but the car is sat in the work car park until tomorrow night when I'll be able to get it home and play with it (will take a few photos if I can - might come in useful for future posts). Having said that I'm reasonably certain it's more likely to be the coolant sensor (hope so, it's easier and cheaper to replace!!) as the boost valve wouldn't stop the EGR system from working.
Darren
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mazzy_j
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Re: Yikes!!! 20mpg from a diesel :-o
« Reply #9 on: Mar 30th, 2006, 8:15am » |
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Hope you get it sorted OK 
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Snoopy
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Re: Yikes!!! 20mpg from a diesel :-o
« Reply #10 on: Apr 9th, 2006, 7:09am » |
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There is a TSB No.186/1997 which refers to excessive smoke on the TDi . DOes this fault apply to your problem?
If you need a copy of the TSB I can supply in PDF
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sector-9
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No scorpio anymore
Posts: 1069
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Re: Yikes!!! 20mpg from a diesel :-o
« Reply #11 on: Apr 9th, 2006, 3:51pm » |
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I don't think it's smoking too badly (but it's the first car I've owned with this engine so I don't know what it should be like). Having said that, it would be interesting to read the TSB and see what adjustment(s) it recommends. I know there is a maximum fuelling adjustment screw on the back of the Bosch pump but thought it best not to play with it until I've actually ran it from a full tank and worked out the exact mpg...
Darren
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sector-9
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No scorpio anymore
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Re: Yikes!!! 20mpg from a diesel :-o
« Reply #12 on: Apr 9th, 2006, 9:28pm » |
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Well I tested the CTS with my multimeter - not sure what figures I should be getting but the resistance changes from about 2500ohms (cold engine) down to about 300 when at normal temperature. Looks like it is working, though as I said, I don't know what figures I should be getting at different temperatures.
I have unplugged the TPS and the 'other' lead to the pump with the engine idling - the engine note changes when either of them are unplugged so I can only assume that they are having an effect on the ECU (whereas it should ignore them if they are obviously faulty).
I'm running out of ideas on this, though I still haven't changed the fuel filter or fitted new cooling fans (would either of those cause poor mpg?); I hate admitting defeat (and detest paying out) but I'm wondering if I ought to book it into somewhere that does diesel fuel systems..?
Mind you, I have splashed out on a 5V LED (30p!) so when I get chance I'll try reading off any fault codes. Does anybody have a list of codes for the EEC IV as used on diesel engines?
Some more information though in case it helps: sometimes starting from cold gives a cloud of blue smoke from the exhaust and it runs rough for a few seconds. Starting when warm is fine, no smoke, nice and smooth. Suspect valve seals and/or glow plug as no blue smoke when revving engine (which would indicate turbo seals). Also EGR valve seems to do nothing whatsoever. Doesn't move at all whether engine cold or warm, idle or revving - hoping there is a fault code stored for me to go on... 
Darren
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sector-9
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Re: Yikes!!! 20mpg from a diesel :-o
« Reply #13 on: Apr 10th, 2006, 11:49pm » |
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Thanks for the TSB; unfortunately this relates to the later (i.e. full electronic control) fuel system so not applicable to my engine. However, it may help me solve the EGR valve problem as it does mention what the resistance of the control solenoid should be (though 6 ohms sounds very low - at 12V that would be 2 amps!) and obviously it is a fairly common fault for them to go open circuit if they've released a TSB. 
Can anybody with the diesel tell me how many miles they get out of a full tank? I've done a lot of dual carriageway/motorway and some town driving both with air-con on and off and even though I haven't used the tank up yet I estimate around 420-450 miles.
Darren
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mazzy_j
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Re: Yikes!!! 20mpg from a diesel :-o
« Reply #14 on: Apr 11th, 2006, 9:52am » |
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I couldn't tell you what I get from a full tank as i've never really brimmed it, but worked out each time from the petrol light comming on, filling up, and to the next petrol light on average I get the following mpg:
Motorway sitting at a steady 70mph : 42ish MPG
Driving around town : 34ish mpg
Mixture of the both : 40ish mpg
Rallly driving : 25ish mpg
Towing a 2 tonne trailer on motorway : 25-30 mpg
EDIT: Just been having a think and i wasn't sure if anyone had mentioned this, but, could there be a diesel leak from the fuel tank or somewhere along the fuel lines from the tank to the engine??
Hope this helps,
Matt
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sector-9
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No scorpio anymore
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Re: Yikes!!! 20mpg from a diesel :-o
« Reply #15 on: Apr 11th, 2006, 7:46pm » |
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It's possible there is a leak, but with the engine running or not there are no wet patches under the car. I may have to get it up on ramps to do a proper check though.
Having said that, tonight when I got home from work I noticed the engine was idling a lot quieter than it used to which I suppose is a good sign that it's recovering from it's illness!
TBH I think the car has only been used for short journeys in the past (76K on an M reg) and the injectors or something clogged up. Yesterday I held the engine up to the governor with the car in 3rd for about half a mile (repeated a few times). Didn't smoke at all when doing it but I'm wondering if maybe that helped..? I will get round to changing the fuel filter at some point as well!
Still can't figure out the EGR control solenoid thingy though - the multimeter shows 12V getting to it when the engine is revved, but it doesn't move a jot. I've also checked the resistance and that is correct. Maybe the armature is seized Think I'll need to take it off and play with it...
Darren
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sector-9
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No scorpio anymore
Posts: 1069
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Re: Yikes!!! 20mpg from a diesel :-o
« Reply #16 on: Apr 11th, 2006, 8:41pm » |
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Well I found out some information on the EGR valve control solenoid:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5722632.html
May also come in useful for those with the 125BHP version TDi engine as this has two of these units - the second one controls the wastegate actuator on the turbo.
From what I can work out, the pipes marked ATM are connected together via a small air filter assembly (yellow plastic disc thingy) and are purely to allow atmospheric pressure air to enter the vacuum system (otherwise the actuators wouldn't close!). The bottom left pipe is for the vacuum source (i.e. the vac pump) and the bottom right pipe is the outlet to the actuator.
If you apply 12V to the terminals you should hear (and feel) it buzzing quietly. According to the above website the ECU sends a fixed frequency/voltage signal to it, but of a varying amount of current. The more current, the more vacuum it will admit to the actuator. This does mean that all the connections and wiring have to be perfect between the solenoid and the ECU as a bad connection can severely limit the amount of current passed. According to a Ford TSB the resistance of the solenoid should be close to 6 ohms.
Darren
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