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Topic: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the plug (Read 11538 times) |
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SteveS
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2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the plug
« on: May 6th, 2006, 9:11pm » |
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Hi Everyone,
I am a forum and cossie newbie....
Just collected a 96 2.9 24V Cosworth which has been standing outside in front of a friends garage for 18 months.
Good battery, cranks nicely but won't start.
No PAT's alerts form the dash LED.
Checked fuel cutoff in boot and the button is depressed - is this correct?
Used OBD11 setup from UKOBD which uses the Digimoto software and this reports nothing on the error codes.
Removed one of the plugs - not bad condition - crancked engine and I do get a smell of fuel from the head.
Don't get a spark from the plug when earthed and the engine crancked.......
The Low Tension (four pins) connector on the Electronic Distributor has been hacked by someone in the past and has the wires exposed but connected.
About 2 inches too the right of the distributor there is what appears to be a "condensor" (3cm square) which is bolted to the engine block with one wire coming out of it (appears to have an exit moulding for two wires)..... This wire hangs down about 6 inches and goes no where......
Any thoughts of what to do and thanks for all the help I have got from the site so far.
Many thanks,
Steve Starr
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Baz
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Senior Member
S Reg. 1998 24v Cosworth S2.9 COS (Deceased)
Posts: 4009
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Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
« Reply #1 on: May 6th, 2006, 9:48pm » |
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Steve...welcome to the mad house!
The button in the boot should be fully depressed.
First thing to try will be the connections to the battery. When it was reconnected, were all the cables put back? There is a tendancy to miss one of the thin black wires which always drops down out of sight and is missed. Without this wire, the engine will crank forever and will not fire. Worth a first look
Baz
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SteveS
Junior Member
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Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
« Reply #2 on: May 7th, 2006, 8:05am » |
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Hi Baz,
Thanks for the welcome and encouraging "mad house" comments.
I have just checked the car and both the battery terminals have two cable tags atatched.
The negative terminal has a heavy duty tag which feeds two large black cables and the other tag feeds two smaller cables which disapear into a piece of "ribbed" loom cover.
Couldn't see any other cables in the area which weren't connected.
The fuel cutoff in the boot is depressed into it's shroud surround so that looks OK.
Thanks,
Steve.
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Simmo
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Posts: 5508
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Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
« Reply #3 on: May 7th, 2006, 8:14am » |
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Steve, Have you read this http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pats.htm. Does the PATS light illuminate because the 'Fault Finder' says if it does not check the PATS fuse. I assume that means fuse 31 in the battery side fuse box. If someone has played about with the wiring could there be a fuse blown in another circuit?.
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SteveS
Junior Member
I'm a YaBB newbie! for the time being....
Posts: 89
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Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
« Reply #4 on: May 7th, 2006, 3:38pm » |
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Hi Simmo,
The PATs light comes on for about a second when ignition is switched on - which I believe is OK.... No error codes are flashed.
Before posting my Forum request for help I went through the relevant parts of the "engine wont start" pages.
All the fuses / relays etc in the fault guides have been checked and appear OK at first pass.
My main concern is the un-connected "condensor" type thing on the block next to the distributor which isn't connected to anything. This is a visible real fault but I don't know what it does or where it should be connected to...
Any wiring diagrams about would be helpfull.
Thanks,
Steve.
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Simmo
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Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
« Reply #5 on: May 7th, 2006, 3:45pm » |
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Look at this page http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/eecvlooms.htm and be sure to scroll to the very bottom where the link will take you to the full diagrams. It says Sierra..BUT..it is for the Scorpio.Good luck.
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SteveS
Junior Member
I'm a YaBB newbie! for the time being....
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Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
« Reply #8 on: May 7th, 2006, 3:55pm » |
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Hi Simmo / Scorpio_Man,
Thanks to the links.... Just what I needed....
Just had a quick look at the engine management diag and found out that the unknown unconected bit on the block is the "Ignition Transformer Capacitor" which sounds quite important to get a spark....
Mine is disconected and I didn't know where it goes... I do now...
Thanks a lot - Out to the dismal day to play with this new knowledge.
Cheers,
Steve.
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SteveS
Junior Member
I'm a YaBB newbie! for the time being....
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Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
« Reply #9 on: May 10th, 2006, 8:35pm » |
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Hi Guy's,
Still haven't got a spark on the plugs....
Found a crashed Ultima with same engine at local scrapppy and bought some parts on the basis that it was running when it was hit from behind so engine bits should be OK.
Replaced the Electronic Distributor on the block, Ignition Unit bolted to the wing behind the the water bottle and Ignition Tranformer Capacitor by the Distributor.... Fitted new platinum tipped plugs (wrong ones in the car) and still no spark.
Verified the integrity of the wiring between the Distributor and Electronic Ignition unit... All OK.
I have 12V on feed into the Distributor (green wire) with key in run position.
Drops to 10V during engine crank?
Replaced the batteries in the remote key fob and coded it to the car using the red key procedure else where on the site... All bleeps at the right times and all functions of remote work OK.
PATs light comes on for about 2 seconds when the key is inserted then goes out (no further flashes).
The OBD11 interface shows no error codes and displays the coolant / air temp OK so that seems to work......
When I crank the engine the OBD11 display shows RPM up from zero to about 200... Does this mean the Crank Position Sensor is working as it shows RPM or does the RPM input come from somewhere else??
Any thoughts on what it could be or what to do next.
Many thanks,
SteveS
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sector-9
Senior Member
No scorpio anymore
Posts: 1069
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Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
« Reply #10 on: May 10th, 2006, 8:44pm » |
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10V when cranking is about right; the starter motor takes a helluva lot of current and will drop the voltage of even a big new battery. This is also taken into consideration though - older cars with a conventional coil used a ballast resistor in series when the engine was running (the coil itself runs on about 9V) - this was switched out of circuit when cranking.
As you are not getting any fault codes, and there is the smell of petrol in the cylinders then I would guess that the fault is in the HT portion of the ignition circuit. Generally the ECU is able to detect faults in the LT side such as open or short circuits (and flag up an error if so), but monitoring the HT side is more tricky.
You could try removing the spark plug leads from the ignition source and (with the ignition turned off) check for continuity between the high voltage terminal and vehicle bodywork. Unfortunately I don't know the electrics for the petrol engine but I'm sure you understand what I mean.
Darren
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SteveS
Junior Member
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Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
« Reply #11 on: May 10th, 2006, 9:06pm » |
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Hi Darren,
Thanks for the reply.... I will check the leads in the morning and I have a spare set that came with the bits I bought from the scrappy yesterday.... Maybe I have been spending my time looking for a difficult fault and not checked the obvious.....
Will let you know the outcome.
Thanks, SteveS
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martin_rowe
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Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
« Reply #12 on: May 11th, 2006, 8:28am » |
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'Distributor', cosworth dose'nt have one it usts a DIS coil pack, triggered by the ECU, check crank sensor down by the front pulley & all associated wiring, deffinatly check for missed wire at battery if that has been dissconnected.
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SteveS
Junior Member
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Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
« Reply #13 on: May 11th, 2006, 11:32am » |
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Hi Martin,
I have a crank sensor on order from FMD which is due in at lunch time today....
I have checked the battery again and the negative terminal has a heavy duty tag which feeds two large black cables and the other tag feeds two smaller cables which disapear into a piece of "ribbed" loom cover.
The two large cables disapear down through a large gromet and the two small cables run along the top of the wiper area towards the drivers side fuse box.
I cant see any other cables..... Should there be more?
In previous posts I mentioned the Distributor but you are right I was referring to it incorrectly - it is in fact the DIS Coil Pack.
Re the Crank Sensor - Is it easy to replace as I can see and get to the bottom bolt but the top one seems to be behind a little pully??
Thanks,
SteveS
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Simmo
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Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
« Reply #14 on: May 11th, 2006, 12:21pm » |
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Steve, Martin is referring to a third cable which is present on some cars. It is a single black wire,more flexible than the other two,and which can fall down behind the battery when disconnected. On my 2ltr 16 valve it runs through a separate grommet just in front of the front left hand corner of the battery. The other two wires are combined with a single terminal on the negative side. The positive feed is similar in that the two heavy duty red cables are combined in one terminal.
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martin_rowe
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Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
« Reply #15 on: May 11th, 2006, 12:56pm » |
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That would be the aux belt tensioner, spring loaded, use spanner to move out of the way, do you say there is only one lead on the pos terminal (two wires), shouldnt there be another thin one, will go out & check over dinner time.
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martin_rowe
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Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
« Reply #16 on: May 11th, 2006, 2:04pm » |
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battery has 3 wires to each terminal.
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SteveS
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Posts: 89
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Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
« Reply #17 on: May 11th, 2006, 3:07pm » |
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Thanks Guy's..... I will go a hunt again as it appears from the replies I may still have one black lead missing.....
There are two leads / terminals on the red.
SteveS
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SteveS
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Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
« Reply #18 on: May 11th, 2006, 4:53pm » |
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Hi Martin,
OK Chaps... On my vehicle I have the following:-
Positive - Two tags - One with one lead and one with two leads
- Two leads - Both go through the gromet down towards the starter motor
- Single lead - Goes to the battery side fuse box
Negative - Two tags - Both with two leads
- Two large leads both go through the gromet
- One then terminates on the chassis as the earth
- One continues down under the engine
- Two small leads - both go into ribbed loom
- The loom then goes off through the bulkhead towards passager
- A spur off the loom goes accross the bonnet towards the wiper motor
I have looked everywhere for a third lead and cannot see / locate - Should I have one??
I picked the car up in a non running state not don't know what was there before.
Re the tensioner two posts ago..... Mine seems very hard to move out of the way... How much force should be needed..... The car has been outside idle for 18 months... could it just be stiff??
I will persivere and get this thing going... Any help would be appreciated...
Thanks,
Steve.
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Dave
Senior Member
Tourmallard 24v (ex-owner)
Posts: 1984
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Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
« Reply #19 on: May 12th, 2006, 9:24am » |
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Hi Steve,
I had exactly this problem a few months ago with my Cosworth, took a while to get there but in the end it was a wiring fault.
When I bought the car over a year previously, it had a water leak from the pipe that goes between the heads. This was sorted but the antifreeze had rotted the insulation. I repaired and reinsulated the wires between the heads, but what the real problem came down to was where the water had been exiting at the front of the engine, all over the crank sensor etc wiring.
I had mine ODB'd two or three times and it never showed any faults. Changed the EDIS module, the coil pack, plugs, leads, all sorts but in the end as a last ditch attempt I took off the top radiator hose and saw what a mess the front wiring was in (not that easy to see, need to take top hose off, coil pack off, and take wiring wrap off).
After 4 months sat right through winter, it started straight up and ran like a beauty 
This was my wiring between the heads which was repaired:
The wiring at the front was in much worse condition but access was much easier.
Worth a look mate 
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