Author |
Topic: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... (Read 2595 times) |
|
pbproms
Newbie
I'm a YaBB newbie!
 
Posts: 18
|
 |
2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« on: Oct 1st, 2006, 5:42pm » |
 Quote  Modify
|
Hello everyone, I'm a newbie here, having just got my first scorpio in April this year.
I have to say this could be a long post, so if you can bear with me, many thanks.
I bought my '98 2.3 dohc all singing all dancing ghia x estate in April, with the intention of having it lpg converted, which was done in June this year. I thought this was a great car, and would do everything I wanted it to do, and with the lpg conversion, at a very ecconomical price too. I do a fair amount of milage, like 25k a year, most of which is motorway driving.
Having had the lpg conversion, everything was fine for 7k miles or so when one night without warning it suddenly exploded and I thought I'd become steam powered, let alone gas powered!
The explosion erupted from the water connections to the lpg regulator(which apparantly heats the lpg to vaporize it), and so the finger was pointed at them. The people who did the lpg conversion were very quick to come out and asses and rectify the situation, replacing the plastic elbows which had failed, but which were obviously the weakest link in the cooling system.
I have to say at this point, the car had given me NO indication that there was or might be any problem at all - temerature guage reading perfectly normal - well what I concieved to be normal, which was just above the blue section on the the guage for motorway running and exactly middway in traffic, heater working, water level correct etc etc.
After the offending elbows had been replaced it was obious that the engine was now running much hotter than had been previously, and it was now noted that the temp guage is at the middway position all of the time once warm.
It soon became obvious that I had much bigger problems, and to cut a long story a little shorter, it was subsequently diagnosed that the head gasket had failed. Once again the finger was pointed at the lpg conversion people, who then went all out to diagnose to root cause of the problem, which turned out to be a thermostat stuck closed. (Yes, I have the said offending thermostat, and I can't get it to open in a pan of boiling warer either!!).
Anyway, after repairs which have cost me just short of £900 I am now back on the road - well almost!
The car runs great, but I feel convinced it is still running hot. The temp guage, as usual, is still middway, but even after 10 mins of running the engine is so hot that you can't touch it without burning ones self, and what's even more worrying is that now when it is idling in drive (it is auto), the oil warning light is flickering, which it never used to do, which is kind of telling me that the oil is so hot that it has lost all its viscosity.
I feel I can now no longer trust this car, but as of now, it has to be the most expensive 8 year old scorpio on the planet and therefore I would really like it to do some work for me in return.
I suppose there are only two things left to check, and they are the water pump and the radiator, but can anybody give me any indication as to which might be the culprit, or has anyone got any other idea's or experience's that may help, please. Or, am I just being paranoid here as, lets face it, up until these problems, I never had any cause to put my hand on the engine to see how hot it was, so maybe its ok, but the oil light thing is still a bit worrying!
If you have managed to read all this I thank you, and I await any advise which may be forthcoming.
|
|
 IP Logged |
|
|
|
scorpio_man
Administrator
Ford Kuga awd
Posts: 5654
|
 |
Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« Reply #1 on: Oct 1st, 2006, 6:07pm » |
Quote Modify
|
hi there
the gauge should sit at just above half way (2.30pm on a watch) because of the lpg.
engine will be hot (very)! all scorpio's are like that for some reason. 
the temp sender/sensor costs about £15 and should be changed only if the dial moves about a lot.
thermostats always seem to fail on the 2.3. 
re the oil. when was it changed? what's in it? should be a very good quality sae 5w-30 semi or fully synthetic oil. national do a good deal on oil changes (£25). might be an idea to change it and see if the light stops.
is there any other issue(s) to make you think all is not well with the car now? are the engine fans working correctly? coming on in slow mode with the a/c, and fast mode to cool the engine? things like that.
let us know how you get on.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
clarkster
Junior Member
Dear Santa, could I have a plasma cutter, please?
Posts: 57
|
|
Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« Reply #2 on: Oct 1st, 2006, 6:09pm » |
Quote Modify
|
If the oil light is flickering then that suggests low oil pressure. It could be that your oil pump is on its way out? Highly unusual though. Try an oil change first.
The hot temp could be due to an airlock or blocked galleries in the radiator? Try reverse flushing the radiator, let the hosepipe give it a good 10 - 15 min alternating flush until the water runs clear.
Engines usually do get too hot to touch, so dont worry about that. It might also be worth checking that your cooling fans are functioning correctly.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
pbproms
Newbie
I'm a YaBB newbie!
Posts: 18
|
|
Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« Reply #3 on: Oct 1st, 2006, 6:23pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Hi, and thanks for quick response.
The temp guage is not erratic, it stays at middway point since the head gasket job.
When they did the head job they have billed me for new oil and filter which they say is synthetic, so have to presume this was done - have no idea of what was in there previous to this.
As regards the fans. Before these problems I never ever noticed the fans on at all.
After the initial explosion etc, they were coming on very quickly, and I presume in fast mode as they were very noticable. Since the head job, I suppose it is encouraging that they don't seem to be coming on at all now. I can't vouch for slow mode as I do not normally use the A/C, but will try that tomorrow and will let you know.
Cheers.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
RichardMS
Full Member
More mods coming soon !
Posts: 434
|
|
Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« Reply #4 on: Oct 1st, 2006, 7:28pm » |
Quote Modify
|
When I first had my 2.3 I had problems similar to yourself, At first I thought it was the head gasket but when I took the head for some work it was discovered to be the head was cracked between cylinders 2 and 3 (common problem on the 2.3), It was an hairline fracture that the guy couldn't find at first, The problems I had also split the inlet manifold.
This cost me just under £1,000 to do the work myself with new parts from Ford and a six week wait for the head to come from Germany, Not a year later and less than1,500 miles while making my way to Cornwall for our holidays the engine siezed, No warning nothing.
The temp guage has always read just above the halfway mark and the engine has always been so hot that you can't even put you're hand on the slam panel when at normal operating temp let alone the engine itself.
I have since got two more engines, one now in the car and seems to be ok for the last 1,000 miles or so, and the other I have since found to be another damaged one with mayo in the sump.
I have not bothered with a thermostat as I now don't trust them, I have also replaced the rad as I suspect this may have been the problem with mine initially.
I would say that you either have an airlock after the T-piece failing or you're head or head gasket has failed.
Try the airlock first.
As for the most expensive 8yr old Scorpio then that would be mine, Don't think I have done 4,000 miles in it in the four years of owning it and it's cost me a fortune so it aint going anywhere yet 
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
TiberiuS
Senior Member
Ex. 1996 2.3 Ultima - RIP P789 KHJ
Posts: 2257
|
|
Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« Reply #5 on: Oct 1st, 2006, 8:30pm » |
Quote Modify
|
My 2.3 always runs around halfway on the temp gauge, always has done since I bought it 2 years/10,000 miles ago.
Been reading again and again about this common fault on the 2.3 lately, starting to think I'm becoming paranoid...
Regarding the temperature problem, I'd fit a new temp sender and see if the gauge reads the same and also change the oil for some good quality stuff and see how it runs afterwards.
Regards, Bruce.
|
|
IP Logged |
Bruce - '07 Jaguar XKR coupe, '95 Jaguar XJ Sport 4.0, '82 Ford Capri 2.0 Ghia, '15 Honda Civic (sloooooww..)
|
|
|
RichardMS
Full Member
More mods coming soon !
Posts: 434
|
|
Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« Reply #6 on: Oct 1st, 2006, 8:46pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Oct 1st, 2006, 8:30pm, TiberiuS wrote:Been reading again and again about this common fault on the 2.3 lately, starting to think I'm becoming paranoid...
Regards, Bruce. |
|
I know what you mean Bruce, After all the problems I had, I still think i'm going to break down every time I go out in mine 
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Jonnycab
Senior Member
Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
Posts: 3900
|
|
Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« Reply #7 on: Oct 1st, 2006, 11:30pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Oil light flickering may be due to the oil pump, but could be as simple as sludge in the engine.
When they changed the oil do you know if they flushed the engine first to remove old deposits.
Draining old oil & replacing it with new oil is no good if there is sludge in the sump, 'cos the new oil will become contaminated very quickly. 
As for the engine being hot. My 2.3 feels really hot & the front cross member seems to heat up a fair bit as well, but my temp gauge is always smack bang in the middle (new temp sender) so I don't worry about it
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Bobbit
Full Member
Scorpio 2.3 ghia x estate
Posts: 253
|
|
Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« Reply #8 on: Oct 2nd, 2006, 8:02am » |
Quote Modify
|
My 2.3 temperature gauge pointer has always sat in the middle of the gauge.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
pbproms
Newbie
I'm a YaBB newbie!
Posts: 18
|
|
Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« Reply #9 on: Oct 2nd, 2006, 8:51am » |
Quote Modify
|
Thanks everybody for replies and comments, - it seems I'm not alone with these problems!
To RichardMS - as regards the head being cracked. I've read this before that these engines have this problem, but if my garage can be trusted (), then the head has just been preasure tested, skimmed etc, and had all the valves re-seated and ground in so everything should be ok in that department.
The oil looks clean on the dipstick, and no sign of creamy stuff on the filler cap etc, but the oil does look very thin, so I think that might be worth changing again, and I think the radiator would be my next thing to look at - I am at the moment trying to find out if they bothered to check this whilst they had it in bits!!
I think I have become totally paranoid about this now. I need this car for my business, and cannot be doing with feeling unsure whether or not I'm going to get there everywhere I go, not to mention the damage to my own credibillity for reliability. Might just have to cut my losses and get rid whilst its still running, shame though really, 'cos its a nice car, and I really like driving it!
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
tintin
Full Member
I'm a YaBB newbie!
Posts: 592
|
|
Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« Reply #10 on: Oct 2nd, 2006, 5:44pm » |
Quote Modify
|
am i reading this wrong? surely the temperature guage should warm up to half-way and stay there? thats what all cars do.... if it was running just above the blue surely it was too cold? the point of the thermostat is to keep it at the ideal temperature regardless of what kind of driving the car is doing.
engines will be too hot to touch? my cossie gets very hot to touch, but guage is half-way (after 5 mins) and scans show 210F which seems ok to me. ive done 6000 miles like that. ive never owned a car that i could touch the engine after a run
sorry if i have misunderstood, but i dont get what makes you think it is overheating? i know the feeling, when i first got mine, it sprung a leak at the thermostat, and i am constantly checking the temperature now, after 9 months my confidence is returning.
agreed on the oil change again start with the cheap options, ive learnt that one on this car......
|
|
IP Logged |
'95 Cosworth Ultima
|
|
|
RichardMS
Full Member
More mods coming soon !
Posts: 434
|
|
Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« Reply #11 on: Oct 2nd, 2006, 7:07pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Oct 2nd, 2006, 5:44pm, tintin wrote:am i reading this wrong? surely the temperature guage should warm up to half-way and stay there? thats what all cars do.... if it was running just above the blue surely it was too cold? the point of the thermostat is to keep it at the ideal temperature regardless of what kind of driving the car is doing.
engines will be too hot to touch? my cossie gets very hot to touch, but guage is half-way (after 5 mins) and scans show 210F which seems ok to me. ive done 6000 miles like that. ive never owned a car that i could touch the engine after a run
sorry if i have misunderstood, but i dont get what makes you think it is overheating? i know the feeling, when i first got mine, it sprung a leak at the thermostat, and i am constantly checking the temperature now, after 9 months my confidence is returning.
agreed on the oil change again start with the cheap options, ive learnt that one on this car......
|
|
The temp guage is not the best as it didn't give me any warning at all, The engine temp I have never had one engine get as hot as this before, with all my other cars I have been able to take the plugs out, although they are quite hot, but the 2.3 in the Scorpio I can't even touch without burning myself, starting to get a little bit of confidence back in mine now, but I think it will be a while before I can think it will be fine every time I go out in it 
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
pbproms
Newbie
I'm a YaBB newbie!
Posts: 18
|
|
Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« Reply #12 on: Oct 2nd, 2006, 9:39pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Hi once more,
The whole point with the temp guage thing is that it isn't doing what it did before all these problems arose.
Before the probs, and from when I aquired the car the guage sat just above the blue line on main road and motorway driving, only going up to the middway point in traffic, but to me that is what it has always done and therefore normal. Now it runs at middway all the time irrespective of driving conditions so something has changed. I accept it is possible that it was wrong before and now its ok, but that doesn't explain the oil light flickering - still seems excessivly hot to me, but will definitely do an oil change regardless.
I have spoke to a radiator specialist today, and he feels that as the rad is hot all over its unlikely to be that, that is the cause.
I'm also going to investigate the airlock possibility as when you squeeze the top hose it doesn't feel like there is much water in it - I believe someone has posted a cure for airlocks with a long tube connected to the small overflow tube on the side of the header tank - I think thats worth a try
Incidently, my temp guage gave me no warning at all that I had any problem whatsoever either, water level was also correct a couple of days before the first incident, also no white smoke, no sludge, etc.
Many thanks.
PB
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Simmo
Administrator
I'm an OAP !
Posts: 5508
|
|
Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« Reply #13 on: Oct 3rd, 2006, 5:38am » |
Quote Modify
|
The method you are after is the 'Johnnycab' method. Detailed on this thread
|
|
IP Logged |
Now I'm an OAP
|
|
|
xr6i
Newbie
I'm a YaBB newbie!
Posts: 11
|
|
Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« Reply #14 on: Oct 3rd, 2006, 5:17pm » |
Quote Modify
|
my 12v v6 temp runs in the blue and has lovely hot air that blows out of the blower, however, mines a v6 and yours is a 2.3 and im now put off in swapping mine for a 2.3. Ive got probs with mine as of last saturday, the matrix is trickling water out.
Any way, if i was you, i would change the expansion tank cap, then if no different, change the temp guage anyway, as ive found that once they boil they are useless, but then the thermostate.
maybe that will bring the guage down to the blue section.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
bizzay1
Full Member
1997 Cosworth Saloon
Posts: 481
|
|
Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« Reply #15 on: Oct 3rd, 2006, 5:27pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Oct 2nd, 2006, 9:39pm, pbproms wrote:
Incidently, my temp guage gave me no warning at all that I had any problem whatsoever either, water level was also correct a couple of days before the first incident, also no white smoke, no sludge, etc.
PB |
|
mine was exactly the same before h/g went, this ended up being a cracked head and when I brought it home from the garage I found it had chucked all it's water out of the cracked inlet manifold (that they missed)and still the guage sat in the middle it does seem to be a very hot engine
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
TiberiuS
Senior Member
Ex. 1996 2.3 Ultima - RIP P789 KHJ
Posts: 2257
|
|
Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« Reply #16 on: Oct 3rd, 2006, 6:37pm » |
Quote Modify
|
No engine is designed to run so cool that it spends all its time in the blue section of the temp gauge, some high performance engines are designed to run hot anyway. Logic seems to point at the middle of the gauge being where the engine normally spends most of its time.
The Scorpio has always hovered around halfway, sometimes just under, occasionally a tad over in heavy traffic but it takes a few miles to get there, even on fast roads so I don't think there's a cooling problem there. Your 12v sounds a bit cool to me, never known a V6 hover in the blue all the time .
Strange thing though, agreeing with Richard, the Scorpio has been the most reliable car I've owned yet I never trust it, never feel at ease taking it far and I dread being stuck behind a slow truck or something because I have to push it so hard to overtake, long before I knew about the head problems I pondered over the 2.3 being too much for an overbored Zetec and had the visions of clouds of smoke pouring out in the middle of a Motorway...
Just a thought, any problems with the 2.3 fitted to the Galaxy?
Something tells me that me and my 2.3 will be parting company sooner rather than later
Bruce.
|
|
IP Logged |
Bruce - '07 Jaguar XKR coupe, '95 Jaguar XJ Sport 4.0, '82 Ford Capri 2.0 Ghia, '15 Honda Civic (sloooooww..)
|
|
|
pbproms
Newbie
I'm a YaBB newbie!
Posts: 18
|
|
Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« Reply #17 on: Oct 3rd, 2006, 8:38pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Hello again,
Well, I must thank everyone for their comments and experiences, I'm quite surprised how many people seem to have had a similar problem of one sort or another.
Today, I tried the 'johhnycab' method of bleading the cooling sysem, as directed to by 'simmo' - cheers.
I was able to fill it with another kettle full of water after this process although I did lose some along the way, but not a kettle full! (I revved it to about 3000 for a few seconds and when I released the throttle it spued a blue fountain of hot water for a couple of seconds which took me quite by surprise, - but no casualties luckily!! - I wonder if this reaction is significant at all).
I then took the car for a spin, about a 10-12 mile round trip including dual carrigeway. Not much difference, guage still sat right in the middle, but, engine still felt very hot to me.
I also checked the fans in slow mode with A/C and they are working fine, but didn't manage to get them to come on in fast mode - maybe it is me being paranoid after all !!!
The downside is that even though the car came through this test ok, the oil light was still flickering slightly on idle. The garage who did the h/g said they have put the ford reccommended oil in it ie; 5/30SAE synthetic I believe. I have had this changed this afternoon with 10/40 semi-syth, but have not yet had time to test drive, will do so tomorrow.
I have to say, I am now feeling a little more confident. However, we have a 600 mile business trip to undertake on Friday, and at the moment our trusty old peugeot 405 deisel is still the favorite to make the trip unless I can cover some miles in the Scorpio between now and Friday without any problems whatsoever, - any bets
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Kjetil S
Senior Member
2001 BMW 520iat
Posts: 1419
|
|
Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« Reply #18 on: Oct 3rd, 2006, 8:47pm » |
Quote Modify
|
It will take quite a while to get the fans running full speed. I drove around for a year or so believing the fans could be shot until one day I let the car idle for half an hour or so on the driveway and I suddenly heard a faint buzz from the front.
|
|
IP Logged |
http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Norway
|
|
|
TiberiuS
Senior Member
Ex. 1996 2.3 Ultima - RIP P789 KHJ
Posts: 2257
|
|
Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc...
« Reply #19 on: Oct 3rd, 2006, 9:13pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Most people say the 2.3 always hovers around halfway on the gauge, if you want peace of mind you could fit a new temp sender or just see how it goes.
The question now is whether the 2.3 in general has a problem with blowing cylinder heads and why as it seems a lot of people on here have come accross this problem, some debate on this would help us owners who haven't yet suffered a blown head to work out what to do
Bruce.
|
|
IP Logged |
Bruce - '07 Jaguar XKR coupe, '95 Jaguar XJ Sport 4.0, '82 Ford Capri 2.0 Ghia, '15 Honda Civic (sloooooww..)
|
|
|
|
Home
Help
Search
Members
Login
Reply
Send Topic
Print