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Topic: "Winter" noise getting worse. (Read 3004 times) |
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cossieguy
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1996 Cosworth Ultima saloon
 
Posts: 550
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"Winter" noise getting worse.
« on: Jan 16th, 2007, 7:08pm » |
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Hi, some of you might remember me posting about my engine getting noisy at start up as soon as the cold weather appeared. Well, it's getting worse and taking longer to go away. It used to go after about 1 min but now stays until the car is fully up to temp(Middle of temp gauge). The noise can best be described as metallic like a hammer hitting metal. It is in time with the revs and the engine shakes as well until warm. Once warm all
symptoms go away. I'm going to flush the engine and change the oil this saturday to see if this helps but i'm worried this might be something more, HOWEVER as everything is allright once up to temperature it can't be that awful can it?
Any suggestions appreciated.
Guy.
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TiberiuS
Senior Member
Ex. 1996 2.3 Ultima - RIP P789 KHJ
Posts: 2257
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Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
« Reply #1 on: Jan 16th, 2007, 7:14pm » |
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Chain tensioners? Bad tappet?
I'm not too familiar with the 24v lump but if it goes in time with the revs then surely those are the places to look.
The Mondeo is developing a brief rattle on cold startup, it's well maintained and only had the timing belt done last year. But, that rattle is worrying me, similar to what you describe, quite loud but goes away in a few seconds...
Regards, Bruce.
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Bruce - '07 Jaguar XKR coupe, '95 Jaguar XJ Sport 4.0, '82 Ford Capri 2.0 Ghia, '15 Honda Civic (sloooooww..)
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Highlander
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13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
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Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
« Reply #2 on: Jan 16th, 2007, 7:49pm » |
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I think i said the same the last time but it sounds like the chain tensioners not getting oil
blocked oilways or just the 24v chain rattle getting worse?
Either way it needs sorted ASAP you could probably buy two 24v's for the price a garage would take to repair the aftermath of a broken chain
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:I give up !  Too much for an old boy!  |
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Dave
Senior Member
Tourmallard 24v (ex-owner)
Posts: 1984
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Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
« Reply #3 on: Jan 16th, 2007, 7:52pm » |
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Can you record it Guy? Most digital cameras will do reasonable video clips nowadays so one of those might suffice.
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cossieguy
Full Member
1996 Cosworth Ultima saloon
Posts: 550
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Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
« Reply #4 on: Jan 16th, 2007, 7:54pm » |
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Stuart, what can i do? Or is it a case of it going into the garage?
It is getting louder and taking longer to go away.
Guy.
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bootiful-scorpios
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ex 2.9 24v
Posts: 560
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Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
« Reply #5 on: Jan 16th, 2007, 8:10pm » |
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guy , have you tried parking nose down hill ,
it just helps stop all the oil draining away if this is what it is.
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TiberiuS
Senior Member
Ex. 1996 2.3 Ultima - RIP P789 KHJ
Posts: 2257
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Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
« Reply #6 on: Jan 16th, 2007, 8:26pm » |
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Guy, a short term fix in my opinion would be to get the oil circulating before you start the engine, this may help it a bit. Now my Scorp is offroad, when I run it every week or two I floor the gas and give it a couple of bursts on the starter to get the oil going before I start it proper. I know you had a problem with it starting on full throttle though...
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Bruce - '07 Jaguar XKR coupe, '95 Jaguar XJ Sport 4.0, '82 Ford Capri 2.0 Ghia, '15 Honda Civic (sloooooww..)
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cossieguy
Full Member
1996 Cosworth Ultima saloon
Posts: 550
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Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
« Reply #7 on: Jan 16th, 2007, 9:05pm » |
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Hope this works but here is some video/sounds from car being started 3 hours after it being warm. The change in pitch/higher pitched noise is me moving closer to engine picture is black as street has little lighting.
Noise
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Pegasus
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24V Cosworth Ultima Born: Sept 97, sold Aug 23
Posts: 742
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Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
« Reply #8 on: Jan 16th, 2007, 9:06pm » |
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on Jan 16th, 2007, 7:49pm, Highlander wrote:I think i said the same the last time but it sounds like the chain tensioners not getting oil
blocked oilways or just the 24v chain rattle getting worse?
Either way it needs sorted ASAP you could probably buy two 24v's for the price a garage would take to repair the aftermath of a broken chain |
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 If you use engine oil flush you'd notice a rattle for a while on start up anyway as I did this summer - its documented in the Troubleshooting guide. As the guide says, this will pass after a while - after about 10 start ups if I recall. I don't use the pedal to the metal procedure as mine fired up!! But, so far, I rarely get a rattle on cold start up (tempting fate now  )
Out of interest, what grade of oil you using?
Paul
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bootiful-scorpios
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ex 2.9 24v
Posts: 560
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Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
« Reply #9 on: Jan 16th, 2007, 9:14pm » |
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guy, link not working my end.
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TiberiuS
Senior Member
Ex. 1996 2.3 Ultima - RIP P789 KHJ
Posts: 2257
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Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
« Reply #10 on: Jan 16th, 2007, 9:25pm » |
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Pegasus, engine won't fire if the TPS is working correct...a pain to remove it and adjust but handy if you need to pump the oil before you rev up...
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Bruce - '07 Jaguar XKR coupe, '95 Jaguar XJ Sport 4.0, '82 Ford Capri 2.0 Ghia, '15 Honda Civic (sloooooww..)
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cossieguy
Full Member
1996 Cosworth Ultima saloon
Posts: 550
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Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
« Reply #11 on: Jan 16th, 2007, 9:25pm » |
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on Jan 16th, 2007, 9:14pm, bootiful-scorpios wrote:| guy, link not working my end. |
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I know i'm having huge probs with photobucket downloading the video, still trying.
Guy.
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cossieguy
Full Member
1996 Cosworth Ultima saloon
Posts: 550
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Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
« Reply #12 on: Jan 16th, 2007, 10:09pm » |
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Link to "Noise" now working(Hopefully). Baring in mind all you'd normally hear is the belts going round and a slight noise from engine hopefully everyone with a 24v will realise just how noisy this is. Sorry no video but it was dark. If its the oil draining from the tensioners then it's happening in a few hours rather than overnight. Most people say they get a rattle for a second or two but my noise stays on or off till the car is up to temp. I'm hoping this is just crap oil thats taking ages to warm up and thin out. This could be my fault as i bought the car and the previous owner said the oil had been changed that was 7,000 miles ago but if he was lying then god knows how long it's been in there. Can oil get so crappy it would take untill the car is hot for it to thin out and lubricate(Made worse now its winter?).The car is using NO oil and it doesn't look that bad on the dip stick.
Guy.
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Dave
Senior Member
Tourmallard 24v (ex-owner)
Posts: 1984
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Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
« Reply #13 on: Jan 16th, 2007, 10:18pm » |
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Guy,
link works fine for me now.
do you know exactly when the oil was last changed, and exactly what oil was put in?
If the answer was no then, IMHO, the first thing you should do is change the oil for some with a decent spec that is suitable for the Scorpio, and get a genuine Motorcraft filter from Ford that has an anti drainback valve.
Seems odd that it goes away when warm, might suggest a problem with the oil. Failing that I would be having a look at the timing chain tensioners.
That would be my first course of action anyway 
EDIT See what you mean about the noise, not nice at all!
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cossieguy
Full Member
1996 Cosworth Ultima saloon
Posts: 550
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Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
« Reply #14 on: Jan 16th, 2007, 10:22pm » |
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No idea when oil was last changed or what's in it. Changing oil on Saturday and flushing system. In mean time not using it as it must be hurting engine as it is almost like theres no oil circulating till car warms up. Alas i'm going to get very wet biking to work 
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tintin
Full Member
I'm a YaBB newbie!
Posts: 592
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Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
« Reply #15 on: Jan 16th, 2007, 10:22pm » |
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ok, me no expert, just from my experience. i had a rattle/knocking at start up, went away after about 5 mins. 2 garages wrote it off, saying it was the timing chain/big ends..... then it started losing power.
turned out to be a blocked cat, feeding back up the engine. rolling road at 5000 rpm and out came a big lump of cat, and power was restored. replaced the cats and everything is back to normal (well apart from the leaky rad  ) i presume when warm, the casing expands and "unblocks". mine was on 98,000 miles when it started.
from your video it sounds generally noisy, whereas mine was distinct rattle/bangs, but worth a check anyway
hope this helps,
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'95 Cosworth Ultima
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Highlander
Moderator
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13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
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Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
« Reply #16 on: Jan 16th, 2007, 11:27pm » |
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Hmmm might just be the recording but it doesnt sound like the metal to metal rattle you get with the chains...
possibly a cat like Sam says
water pump?? try the pulley for movement or remove the belt and start it up for a second or two to see if there is any difference
the oil will be circulating well before the engine gets to temp so I wonder if the thermostat opening and reducing the load on the pump stops the noise??
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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bootiful-scorpios
Full Member
ex 2.9 24v
Posts: 560
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Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
« Reply #17 on: Jan 16th, 2007, 11:35pm » |
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guy, is the noise def coming from the the dreaded chain area ?
is there any loss in power when car is warmed up?
i dont know for 100% but me think you have a air leek in the egr or in the manifolds what expand and seal its self when hot, have a listen under car around drivers door area and then passenger side if it is from there you will know as it will sound even louder once ya head is under there, or take a small bit of hose and have a listen with that around the back of the engine and around the egr
deff get the new oil and filter put in.
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Highlander
Moderator
Expert
13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
Posts: 8244
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Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
« Reply #18 on: Jan 17th, 2007, 8:27am » |
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These all sound better (cheaper) possibilites
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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martin_rowe
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I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Posts: 879
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Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
« Reply #19 on: Jan 17th, 2007, 8:56am » |
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thats a real bad noise, probably missing something on the sound bite, try removing aux belts, where is it eminating from, oilpressure / flow needs to be checked, usual problem on 24v is blocked oil strainer, is there any sign of 'black sludge' in the cam cover, look / feel inside the oil filler cap. definatly causing more damage the longer it runs.
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