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Topic: 2.3 leaks coolant - cylinder head gasket? (Read 736 times) |
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ottopmh
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2.3 leaks coolant - cylinder head gasket?
« on: Jan 30th, 2007, 6:06am » |
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Good morning everyone,
96 2.3, 129 000 km on the clock.
Started dripping coolant about one week ago and it took three days to find the spot. Finally I noticed that there's a small trail of coolant on top of the gearbox. It was difficult to find as the gap between engine and scuttle is so tiny.
That's when I got worried. As far as I can see there are three options.
1) Hose to heater matrix
2) Cylinder head gasket
3) Cylinder head cracked
I'm afraid that it's not the first one. The hose is attached to the scuttle and the coolant is not dripping from it. At least that's how it looks like. I have now a tiny mirror with bending handle - similar to the ones that dentists have - and I will try to have a look to the cylinder head / gasket area from behind with the help of the mirror.
At the beginning it did not leak when hot, but now it seems to leak a bit also when hot. When standing in the cold (currently -10...-20 degrees centigrade) it leaks about 0,3 litres a day. It leaks most when block heater starts to heat the engine starting from ambient temperature.
For me this sounds not like a hose. I'm afraid that it's a crack or gasket. Leaks when cold, leaks more when warms up = builds up pressure and then stops or leaks less when hot -> parts hot and tight due to heat expansion.
But how come? Is this typical of these engines? I know that Sierra DOHC is very vulnerable when it comes to the cylinder head. But it's not the same cylinder head in this one. Anyway, it has not overheated, not even tried. I've had it now from 85000 km to the present.
No abnormal pressure in the expansion tank, no petrol fumes in it, clear oils, heater works fine, no extra cloud from exhaust. So it seems that from wherever it leaks, it only leaks to outside. Usually cylinder head cracks and gasket leaks cause at least one of those typical symptoms. But this has none. Weird.
The questions then... how common this is? Anyone had the similar problem?
If it needs a new gasket I'm planning to do it myself. Only thing that worries me is the valve timing... I mean how on earth I'm supposed to adjust the camshafts, inlet 2,2 deg and exhaust 2,9? One way would be to paint a mark to the chain and chain wheels and then try to keep the chain in it's original place and not to drop it from the crankshaft's chain wheel... However this can not be done if the chain needs to be replaced.
And then what would I need?
All seals and gaskets, new cylinder head bolts, new tensioner, new chain guide (top) and once I have it open, I think that new valve rubbers as well.
Then I must take it to the machine shop for pressure testing, planing and valve guide checking (comes easily loose on Sierra - a problem of this too?).
Can I count on continuing with the old chain and wheels when there's 129 000 on the clock? No extra sounds from the cylinder head area, so I think that there's no need to replace any "moving" parts (cams, valves and so on).
Thanks
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Octavian_P
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Re: 2.3 leaks coolant - cylinder head gasket?
« Reply #1 on: Jan 30th, 2007, 7:44am » |
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Hi there, sorry to hear of your problems, from what i see on the forum the 2.0 and 2.3 are a bit more sensitive to the head gaskets and inlet manifold. My 2.3 has done 152.000 km and it goes great except some nasty electrical problems. You could check the manifold near the thermostat housing, it has the bad temper to crack there. Do you get lots white smoke even after long trips ? If yes it may be a head gasket if no, you could lose water from somewhere else.
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martin_rowe
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Re: 2.3 leaks coolant - cylinder head gasket?
« Reply #2 on: Jan 30th, 2007, 8:42am » |
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another common leak is the plate on the back of the cylinder head, though may not be possable to replace the gasket on that in situ, may be possable if engine & front frame were dropped down, ie jack up car, support on stands under body, undoo all crossmember bolst, steering column joint & lower frame & engine down, will give a couple of inches without pulling any wires / pipes ect.
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ottopmh
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Re: 2.3 leaks coolant - cylinder head gasket?
« Reply #3 on: Jan 30th, 2007, 8:51am » |
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Hi,
Haven't checked the inlet manifold. As far as I know there's no water flowing in it (as in older cars in which inlet manifold was typically heated by coolant to prevent it from freezing in moist and cold conditions). And there should be no way for the water to flow from around the thermostat to the rear of the engine and to the top of the gearbox. It must be coming from behind the engine.
But if I end up removing the cylinder head I will of course examine the inlet manifold as well as all the other parts too
Longest trip was on the very first day when I noticed the leak. 200km and back. No abnormal phenomenons what so ever
And this is exactly the weird thing... No normal symptoms of cylinder head gasket problems, at least yet. I just had a chat with a fried of my father, who has dealt with machinery, engines and so on for 40 years. He has never ever seen leaking head / gasket with none of the typical symptoms present. There has always been at least one of them.......
I will try to have a closer look with the mirror today or tomorrow. Let's hope that I can see from where it is leaking.
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ottopmh
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Re: 2.3 leaks coolant - cylinder head gasket?
« Reply #4 on: Jan 30th, 2007, 8:58am » |
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Hi there again,
That's what I forgot to ask! So there is some kind of plate. Is it similar to the ones which you have in cast iron engine blocks? There's a hole in the block and it is tapped with a metal plate?
If there's something like that then it could be the culprit.
Yep... I have one poor photo of that kind of engine from behind. It really looks like there's some kind of plate. Will have to - yes - use the mirror
Anyway... lot of work to have it fixed
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Simmo
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Re: 2.3 leaks coolant - cylinder head gasket?
« Reply #5 on: Jan 30th, 2007, 9:53am » |
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The thing you are talking about is called a core plug.
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ottopmh
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Re: 2.3 leaks coolant - cylinder head gasket?
« Reply #6 on: Jan 30th, 2007, 10:10am » |
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My dictionary recons only "core plate", but I suppose it's the same
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Jonnycab
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Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
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Re: 2.3 leaks coolant - cylinder head gasket?
« Reply #7 on: Jan 30th, 2007, 11:07am » |
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What Simmo suggested is a possibility
A friend of mine who also owns a 2.3 is having trouble at the moment with a leaky core plug.
There is a product called 'K-seal', which is supposed to seal up engine block & cylinder head leaks permanently, although I couldn't recommend you try it, as I've never used it. Also most people will say not to put anything in the cooling system.....it's a matter of personal choice 
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TaperOne
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135k 98 2.3 Ultima Estate
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Re: 2.3 leaks coolant - cylinder head gasket?
« Reply #8 on: Jan 30th, 2007, 11:34am » |
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HI,
The problem is almost certainly what Martin said. At the back of the cylinder head there is a blanking plate that can leak. It is held on with three torx bolts. Mine had been weeping from here when I first got the car but seems to have settled down now (Bars Leaks). My understanding is that this plate is blanking off the coolant feed that is used when the engine is mounted transversley as in the Galaxy.
I did try to remove this plate, but as already been said, there aint a lot of space (lost two torx bits trying). I reckon the quickest way to access this plate is to remove the bulkhead, which apparently can be done, but I havn't sussed it yet and I got no response on here when I asked how to remove it a while back.
hope this helps.
Cheers
Pete H
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ottopmh
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Re: 2.3 leaks coolant - cylinder head gasket?
« Reply #9 on: Jan 30th, 2007, 12:04pm » |
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Thanks for the advices!
This sounds really promising now. Let's see if the mirror agrees.
If the plate is the culprit then I will try to access it from behind by removing the bulkhead. I will update you then
If I can't do it like that I will remove the whole engine rather than removing the cylinder head.
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Scorpius
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95 Cossie in metalic Green. 96 Cossie in red
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Re: 2.3 leaks coolant - cylinder head gasket?
« Reply #10 on: Jan 31st, 2007, 6:01pm » |
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The inlet manifold and the Thermostat housing are all in one piece. The manifold is plastic and cracks just behind the thermostat. Under pressure, the coolant jets out of the crack and soaks the TPS and its connectors and wiring, so its well woth coming back from a run. opemning the bonnet and watching that area to be dead sure.
I have had 3 manifolds crack in the same place on my 2.3 due to overpressurisation because of the head gasket gong.
Ian
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ottopmh
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Re: 2.3 leaks coolant - cylinder head gasket?
« Reply #11 on: Feb 1st, 2007, 6:46am » |
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Hi,
I'm confident that the leak is not coming from thermostat area.
It was difficult to see the plate even with the mirror, but I'm pretty sure that I saw few drops of something beneath the bottom bolt of the plate.
But then the tricky part - how to fix it. I will try if I could tighten it a bit to see if it would help. But it can't be opened, cleaned and refitted without giving it more room. It seems that the bulkhead is all in one piece and therefore difficult to remove. At least AC pipes must be disconnected as they go through the bulkhead. I'm afraid that I must remove the engine - and I think that AC pipes must be disconnected anyway...
Easiest way might be to detach cardan axle and gear shift lever rather than the whole gearbox. Then move engine and gearbox a bit forward. Clutch has been changed 40 000km ago and there should be no need for repairs in that area.
What do you think? How to get it done?
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Mike_Floutier
Full Member
'97 2.3 Ultima saloon lpg
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Re: 2.3 leaks coolant - cylinder head gasket?
« Reply #12 on: Feb 2nd, 2007, 12:07pm » |
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I'm not recommending this because I know most people advise against it but I have always had coolant leaks in my 3 Scorpios and I've always used one of those "Barrs stop leak" type things with no ill effects. The first two cars went on to do 275k and 340k miles before being sold and the current one has 240k on the clock.
I always make sure I shake it well, put it into a hot engine and drive for an hour or so straight after.
Maybe there are others out there who have been shy of admitting this practice. Perhaps we could have a poll to get an idea how safe it is. It is, after all a simple remedy.
Mike
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pete from Hull
Senior Member
Non Scorpio at the moment, but still interested...
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Re: 2.3 leaks coolant - cylinder head gasket?
« Reply #13 on: Feb 2nd, 2007, 3:35pm » |
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Back in the seventies I was employed as a Radiator Repairer for 7 years, We used to strip rads and fit new cores in them which meant taking off the top and bottom tanks etc. On many occasions we encoutered the results of these products, all they tend to do is basically "Block the tubes in the core which are very narrow" with like a scum type substance. Another thing people tried (probably out of desperation) was to crack eggs into the rad which had the same effect, (you can imagine the smells from stripping a rad in this case).
I know that times have changed and products may have undergone some improvement, however I would recommend ONLY using these products as a last resort, ie maybe to get you home, and then to completely backflush the system to remove it before repairs are carried out. there is no substitute for having a complete and proper job done in this respect, I have just had to pay £2000 + for replacing my engine after the last one melted the piston crowns on the M5.
Hope this help your discision
Pete
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ottopmh
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Re: 2.3 leaks coolant - cylinder head gasket?
« Reply #14 on: Feb 5th, 2007, 7:06am » |
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I'm not going to use that kind of stuff.
I will fix it properly when the time comes. So far I've been able to drive as normally. Coolant level drops from the max level to min within about one week.
I have a good place to do the repairs. Five car jacks (and I do not mean trolley jacks but the fixed ones), all needed tools etc... 40e per five months, open three days a week. Fully equipped garage. =D
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martin_rowe
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Re: 2.3 leaks coolant - cylinder head gasket?
« Reply #15 on: Feb 5th, 2007, 8:59am » |
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actually did a coolant leak from the rear plate on a 2.3 last friday, was lucky though, noticed it while doing a clutch on it, even so it ws still a bit of a b****r to do, removing bulkhead may give more room but the plate is below the level of the removable part and obstructed by the EGR pipe, still think that droping the engine assy down a few inches is best bet unless g/box is out or head removed. the leak is caused by an O ring on the plate that gets too hard to seal, the plate is available from ford for about £3.50, I just replaced the O ring.
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proberjohn
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Re: 2.3 leaks coolant - cylinder head gasket?
« Reply #16 on: Feb 9th, 2007, 11:23pm » |
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My 2.3 had a slow leak when I first got it. I've never managed to pin it down but have seen coolant drips off the bottom of the belhousing so I assume that the leak is at the rear of the engine. It used to leak more when cold but had now almost disappeared.
Supected locations are the "Galaxy" blanking plate but I also believe that there is a core plug within the bellhousing.
It's been like it for over two years now - more trouble to repair than live with. Only fear is a corroding core plug that may give way.
My 2.3 doesn't have the low header tank alarm although I have bought a header tank with the switch and may wire it into the washer low light circuit one day (when I get round to it)
John B.
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