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Topic: Rad Leak! (Read 1982 times) |
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DJWerkz
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Went to use my Cossie recently and noticed a small water leak under the front nearside, my initial thought was a ballooned bottom hose but my brother-in-law came to remove the under engine plastic tray yesterday and actually found it was a leaking rad.
Removed the AC condenser (which needs replacing anyway) and the rad but we could not see any puncture holes or damage anywhere. Took it back to the rad specialist I bought it from and immediately they noticed the problem; where the metal body is crimped onto the side structure, the crimp had started to open out.
He said this can either be caused by a front end knock or system over-pressurization. I said I've had no knocks so it must be the latter, which he replied, 'you must have a bad thermostat'.
This kind of reinforces a conversation I had with Bill (STN) the other week as I had been out in rush hour traffic and temp gauge went up through the roof,...well, alot higher than it's ever done before. It did not hit the red but was d**n close to it, and since then I had noticed the car running hotter than it does normally. Bill's first comment was, 'are you sure the thermostat is not bad'.
I called Bill yesterday after leaving the rad at the specialist (they said they can repair it) and spoke to his son Chris who confirmed my fears that new thermostat's from Ford are hard to come by as they've been on back order for some time. Chris said he thinks he has just sold their last unit (I read a thread on the Scorpio 'How To' sister site that indicated a six-month wait!!).
Fortunately, even though I live in a village we have a small Ford dealer who have got to know me pretty well over the last three-years  I stopped by there yesterday and he called his head parts office who reckoned they could have one by tomorrow afternoon (this afternoon by the time you read this). Just received a call from the parts guy,...it's in this morning!!!
How is that for service 
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tintin
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I'm a YaBB newbie!
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Re: Rad Leak!
« Reply #1 on: May 1st, 2007, 1:09pm » |
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interesting, on my 24v, the rad went on the side, i suspect due to crimping giving way. recently my temp has been rising during traffic. only to 2/3rds but still.....
that being said, i had the thermostat replaced early last year.......
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'95 Cosworth Ultima
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DJWerkz
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Interesting indeed. I too have always noticed that the temp guage creeps up to the 2/3rds mark in traffic but it always dropped down again to a fraction below mid-point position once driving (in fact, I would often just nip the accelerator pedal to increase the rev's a little which would also drop the temp gauge when sitting in traffic).
However, the other week the temp gauge sat on the last white mark before moving into the red position, never done that before.
So with a good rad and a new thermostat taken care of, what else are we,should we be looking at? Replace the header tank cap? Bad sensors somewhere?
Updated: Just called the rad people and they have repaired the rad FOC. Awesome, well happy with that as I bought over a year ago,...October 2005 to be exact.
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Jonnycab
Senior Member
Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
Posts: 3900
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Re: Rad Leak!
« Reply #3 on: May 1st, 2007, 3:21pm » |
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Does sound like a simple t-stat problem as the temp guage should sit in the middle regardless of whether sitting in traffic or not 
If the t-stat is faulty, then the temp will rise when sitting in traffic because there is no rushing air to cool the rad down
You mentioned that the temp would drop slightly when dipping the accelerator, this may point to a water pump problem........
Also, do the fans come on when it starts to get really hot ?.....fan switch or ECT fault ?....
And airlocks can cause big problems as well
Problem diagnoses is endless really, but the t-stat is always the best place to start
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DJWerkz
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Fans do come on and I've noticed no tell-tale signs of the water pump failing, but then I know these can just go with no warning.
I am pretty sure there are no air-locks in the system too as I am always pretty hot to check this. I have one of the home-made mods too that enables air to be removed from the system at the point of the horrible 'snaking' hose exiting from the heater matrix.
It's a t-piece 15mm copper pipe assembly with a blead valve located at the top of the t-piece. When you install this, the horizontal part of the t-piece assembly is inserted right where the bad kink sits in the heater matrix pipe (you cut the pipe at the kink and insert the t-piece and clamp on with jubilee clips.
Made the job of bleading the air out of the system a piece of cake when I did the heater matrix.
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Jonnycab
Senior Member
Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
Posts: 3900
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Re: Rad Leak!
« Reply #5 on: May 1st, 2007, 4:21pm » |
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Fingers crossed, it just needs a new stat then
When I mentioned the water pump, I was thinking more that the impellor blades may be worn down & not circulating the coolant efficiently
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Dave2302
Senior Member
2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
Posts: 1119
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Re: Rad Leak!
« Reply #6 on: May 1st, 2007, 4:58pm » |
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Hi,
This over pressurisation due to thermostat fault has never made one ounce of sense to me. 
The only part of the cooling system that controls the upper pressure limit is the cap which is designed to blow off (release excess pressure) at a pre determined point. It also has a valve designed to prevent a vacuum forming as the engine cools, which allows air back in.
Lets call this "x" psi, (because I cant remember the exact figure but its around 15 psi).
Therefore assuming that it is in fact excessive pressure causing the radiator leaks and also assuming that the radiator has been designed to work in excess of "x" psi.........
The only logical diagnosis must be the cap not releasing pressures in excess of "x".
However, me thinks that the rads are the badly designed bit, cos I can't see the pressure cap springs becoming stronger with age
The only effect the thermostat will have on this system is running hot or running cold as it's sole purpose in life is to keep the engine at an efficient and constant operating temperature.
Air locks will only serve to create locallised hot spots or inefficient circulation, and can result in overheating in extreme cases, but you'll only get an airlock if you have not refilled and bled the system right, or if theres a head gasket or similair leak which will allow air / gases in.
And lastly...... if they get hot sat in traffic, but not when moving its due to poor airflow and or cooling fans not working properly. However, it is quite normal for the gauge to rise a bit until the fans cut in, then drop till they cut out, then rise again etc etc.
Hope this helps make some sense,
Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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pete from Hull
Senior Member
Non Scorpio at the moment, but still interested...
Posts: 1365
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Re: Rad Leak!
« Reply #7 on: May 1st, 2007, 10:51pm » |
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Many years ago radiators were designed to be mounted with the waterways (tubes) going from top to bottom ie the water entered the top and flowed down through the matrix. They were built very strongly compared to nowadays. When cars began to be designed with low fronts and transverse engines etc, they started to lay the rads sideways, they are now also made more lightweight, the fact that the tubes run from side to side means that with the road conditions being so uneven many stresses happen with the effect that the waterways can bounce up and down more (especially when they get older) the manufacturers put bracing straps across the block which does help to stiffen the assembly etc. Rads used to work at 10 or 15psi depending on the make and when we reaired them they were always tested to 30psi by fitting rubber bungs in the pipes and applying compressed air, we then lowered them into a tank of water, if air was seen to escape it meant there was a leak... simple...
The reason rads are designed to work at a higher pressure is that under pressure water boils at the higher temperatures found in modern cars. the only function of the thermostat is to restrict the flow of coolant to the radiator allowing the engine to get to the working temperature faster, once this has been reached the stat serves no other purpose and remains open. If the pressure cap fails then pressure can build up in the system which will force it's way out through the weakest point, ie an old weakened hose or a tired radiator matrix, especially the heater matrix etc. In winter, if you didn't have antifreeze in the engine it would likely freeze up in the engine block, that is when the core plugs come into action and pop, I have had cases of this on many occasions in the past, if the core plugs weren't fitted it could literally split the engine block, hence the main reason for adding antifreeze.
hth Pete
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Dave2302
Senior Member
2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
Posts: 1119
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Re: Rad Leak!
« Reply #8 on: May 2nd, 2007, 10:37am » |
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wonder what would happen if the modern radiators were tested to 30 psi 
Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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DJWerkz
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So what are you guys saying, it's more likely a faulty header tank cap?
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Jonnycab
Senior Member
Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
Posts: 3900
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Re: Rad Leak!
« Reply #10 on: May 3rd, 2007, 12:53am » |
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Not sure mate....I've kind of lost the plot now
New t-stat is about £13.00 from FMD, & a new rad cap is about £9.00 (I seem to remember).
T-stats are more prone to failure than rad caps, so I'd still go for (as you first thought) a new t-stat
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Jonnycab
Senior Member
Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
Posts: 3900
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Re: Rad Leak!
« Reply #11 on: May 3rd, 2007, 2:47am » |
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Dave2302 wrote....
...."This over pressurisation due to thermostat fault has never made one ounce of sense to me. "
If the thermostat is jammed shut then the coolant can't flow through it.
As the engine gets hotter, the coolant gets hotter & expands.
If the expanding coolant is not allowed to flow because the thermostat is jammed shut, then the pressure build up should expell from the header tank overflow pipe as long as the rad cap is working okay.
Being that the header tank overflow pipe is only a small bore pipe & the rad cap only has two small outlets in it, then if the pressure is so great & too much for the rad cap, then it can split the rad or blow the head gasket if there are any weak points in either 
Maybe it's the rad cap that needs to be bought into question here, as two outlets that are only 2mm by 4mm each in the cap, may not be large enough to relieve a possible pressure build up in time to prevent damage occuring to the engine or radiator  ....& if the holes were bigger, then a larger bore overflow pipe would be a deffinate advantage
P.S......If I'm talking total c**p, then please don't hesitate to correct me on any of this & I will tell my brain to shut up
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pete from Hull
Senior Member
Non Scorpio at the moment, but still interested...
Posts: 1365
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Re: Rad Leak!
« Reply #12 on: May 3rd, 2007, 6:51am » |
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The thermo can either stick in the open position in which case overcooling would be the result. Or it can stick in the closed position, it then would as has been said cause the water to boil, this would increase the pressure and damage could be done. However the pressure rises and falls within the tollerances as designed under normal operating conditions, the pressure cap allows for this, it is designed to handle normal working pressure, if it rises above the normal working pressure then it will open up and release. (this is when you first see a cloud of steam from under the bonnet)
If the thermo has stuck closed the pump will still spin but there would be no pumping effect as there is no flow, the pressure build up comes from the coolant boiling. If when you start your engine from cold you can feel the top hose where it comes out of the stat, it is cold, gradually, as the engine heats up to the working temp it will suddenly open, then you would feel the hose get hot. Result, thermo is working.
To sum up in the case of overheating, the first things to check/replace would be 1 Check for coolant level
2 Thermostat 3 pressure cap.
In the case of overcooling. 1 it could be that the stat is stuck open. 2 the fans may be running all the time. 3 the fan motor relay could be faulty. 4 a faulty cts may be sending false information to the ecu. 4 the ecu may be faulty.
At the moment I am having this problem (fans running all the time) I have carried out all the tests as above and am now wondering if my ecu is either faulty or is recieving a rougue signal from the extra control module that has been fitted during the gas conversion that I had done. (its nearly due a gas service so I'll take it up with them then) meanwhile if anyone has further thoughts?....
hth
Pete
hth
Pete
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scorpio_man
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Ford Kuga awd
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Re: Rad Leak!
« Reply #13 on: May 3rd, 2007, 8:30am » |
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on May 3rd, 2007, 6:51am, petehull wrote:
At the moment I am having this problem (fans running all the time) I have carried out all the tests as above and am now wondering if my ecu is either faulty or is recieving a rougue signal from the extra control module that has been fitted during the gas conversion that I had done. (its nearly due a gas service so I'll take it up with them then) meanwhile if anyone has further thoughts?....
hth
Pete
hth
Pete |
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disconnect the multi-plug for the a/c pressure switch down next to the passenger headlight (bumper). does the fans still run all the time after doing so?
hth
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the_boogeyman
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ive been losing a full tank of water every two weeks now for over a year, i cant see any reason why im losing it either, ive changed the water pump, thermostate, still lose water.
so i just fill it up and get on with it.............
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pete from Hull
Senior Member
Non Scorpio at the moment, but still interested...
Posts: 1365
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Re: Rad Leak!
« Reply #15 on: May 3rd, 2007, 11:56am » |
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If you fasten a plastic bottle on the end of the overflow pipe which comes out of the header tank you will be able to determine if there is eccess pressure in the system during a drivewhich would cause loss of coolant. It is recommended that you keep antifreeze in all year round, a. it raises the boiling point. b. it inhibits corrosion in the engine block and cylinder head. and c. it lubricates moving parts ie the pump and besides that it does stop freezing in winter. If you are topping up with water all the time there will be very little, if no antifreeze in your system, if your topping up with antifreeze, then it will be costing you an arm and a leg .
hth
Pete
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DJWerkz
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Have you tried leaving the plastic tray off and palcing some paper/cardboard sheeting underneath over night, or especially after you park up after using it to see if/where the coolant is leaking from?
I ordered a new header tank cap by the way, just to dot all the 'i's' and cross all the 't's'.
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DJWerkz
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Just realised the thermostat is in a 'sealed' brass housing, Ford gave me a separate thermostat! Is Paul Daniels around could do with a quick magic trick to swap out the stats lol
Looks like a trip back down to Ford's in the morning, just glad they are in the village here and I can get to them on my mobility scooter
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howiedintheplace
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Based near Evesham
Posts: 1194
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Re: Rad Leak!
« Reply #18 on: May 8th, 2007, 12:55am » |
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This one again
Done tests on stats before from good/ballooned rads, appears to be no real link.
The cossie rad is only fitted to the 24v & seems to be weak.
Once you stick some pressure gauges in the system & run it all will start to make sense.
A number of parts where redesigned for the BOB 24v & this is partly to blame for some higher than excepted norm pressures sometimes.
It's not a easy fix at all really but a new cap is in the right direction.
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Dave
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DJWerkz
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...come on then Dave, over you come and sort it out for me then lol 
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