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Topic: Fuel pump / electrics (Read 10566 times) |
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #100 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 9:16am » |
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I would have thought you'd hear a leak bad enough to do this - assuming you're saying you can't save it by blipping the throttle.
Removing the inlet pipe would give false IAT & MAF readings, haven't tried it - can if you want.
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ABS multiplug wheel sensor pins MK IV or MK 20
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Scorpius
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95 Cossie in metalic Green. 96 Cossie in red
 
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #101 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 9:38am » |
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Highlander. It would suddenly die. It would start again, but got harder and harder to start when it did die, and in the end, no start at all.
Ian
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H12 FJK
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #102 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 10:09am » |
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Blocked exhaust maybe? I once had a potato jammed up my pipe causing these symptoms.
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TiberiuS
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Ex. 1996 2.3 Ultima - RIP P789 KHJ
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #103 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 11:04am » |
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A few more stabs in the dark:
If you say the spark is ok, what about the idle air valve? Although, if that was suddenly closing for some reason, keeping the throttle open a bit would keep the engine running 
Cracked manifold on the air side would surely give the same symptoms as a vacuum leak as the inlet is under negative pressure? I'm thinking high, rough idle, maybe lean running until the o2 sensors pick up on it? Don't see how a leak could kill it, I've had the mother of vacuum leaks more than once 
Have you scanned it? Might be a fault code lurking somewhere and you could really do with some live data from the ECU now, might solve this entire thing for you.
Not sure if you've been here but exhaust restriction as Frank mentions? Maybe a bad cat causing back pressure and slowly killing the engine? Surely there'd be more warning of it dying though?
Not sure if this would work but how about piggybacking some 12v LEDs into each injector plug and each coilpack plug, would show the pulsed of each and you might be able to see if the timing of either was going out of phase when the prob occured?
These are just wild guesses now, more like thinking aloud so apologies if they don't make any sense. But there may be something there that may help  .
Regards, Bruce.
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Bruce - '07 Jaguar XKR coupe, '95 Jaguar XJ Sport 4.0, '82 Ford Capri 2.0 Ghia, '15 Honda Civic (sloooooww..)
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Spannerdemon
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #104 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 3:35pm » |
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Has the Fuel Injector Relay SOCKET itself been checked underneath for a corroded or poor connection? I know you've also changed the relay, but it would seem to be a fuel/electrical based cutout problem now that fuel flow has been eliminated.
Is the wiring to the socket sound. May be a fusebox problem connected to the relay.
Running out of ideas now. A REALLY strange one this.
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Highlander
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13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #105 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 4:26pm » |
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Definitley not a fuel delivery problem
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:I give up !  Too much for an old boy!  |
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Dave2302
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2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
Posts: 1119
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #106 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 8:57pm » |
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I've had engines with bad air leaks and they still run and start albeit rough, doubt it's ecu as I doubt you would be unlucky enuf to have 2 with exactly the same fault......
I am now thinking along the lines of an overfuelling issue, really need some diagnostic data now. 
Fuel Pressure gauge on it me thinks, and look at fuel trims when it's running.
Did you check the temp sensor ?
Regards Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Dave
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Tourmallard 24v (ex-owner)
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #107 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 10:07pm » |
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Could you try a known good top notch battery? (If you haven't already).
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Spannerdemon
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #108 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 10:13pm » |
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I've been talking to a very old friend of mine this evening about this. We used to build engines together, and it was good to pool ideas, so bear with a couple of oldies!! 
Although I've suggested it before, we are both of the opinion that 3 things are still worth another look.
Defective Crankshaft sensor. Gets hot, and engine fails. Cools and is temporarily OK again so engine re-starts.
On some cars there is an Ignition Amplifier. When these fail or begin to fail, they will produce exactly the known symptoms. Are you absolutely sure that there isn't an Ignition Amplifier (or similar component that performs this function), on your car? Has one been fitted, perhaps, as an aftermarket extra before you bought the car?
I know this is going over old ground, but we think you need to take another look at the actual spark delivery, and possible failure due to an amplifier/spark voltage delivery- intermittant fault.
Only other thing that struck us is this: You say>>>>>>>>>>>
Quote:| when trying to restart immediately afterwards the speedo and rev gauges go round the dials although the battery is sound - is this a clue ? |
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Surely this suggests that there has been a complete/partial/sudden disconnection of the cars power source?
Battery may well be sound, but have you checked the Battery and ALL Earth cables? Is one hanging by a thread? Just touching, but fails to touch (maybe with vibration), for a split second, cutting the power?
Possibly damaged/corroded/loose or not totally secure and so causing an intermittant power supply fault.
We've seen some horrendous earth cables (or what's been left of them) in our time. Also some where the cables were held on by one single remaining strand of the braid. Yes really, just one very thin wire.
Barely making contact at all, and certainly not giving any electrical connection worth talking about. Could well cause an almost invisible problem. Give them all a good yank to see that they are sound.
If the battery cables are as old as the car, they could well be shot. Likewise any smaller earth cables attached to other components. Might also be worth checking any earth straps between engine and gearbox components.
Us old Zimmermen are still rooting for you.
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TiberiuS
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Ex. 1996 2.3 Ultima - RIP P789 KHJ
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #109 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 11:01pm » |
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EDIS module?
On the diagram the coils take a 12v from the ignition bus, neutral switched through the module.
Not something I've ever touched but perhaps it's possible it could be putting the timing of the packs out?
Still sounds like a straight forward fuel/ignition cut if it dies so smoothly, even if you pull a fuel pump relat it stumbles for a second or two before it dies.
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Bruce - '07 Jaguar XKR coupe, '95 Jaguar XJ Sport 4.0, '82 Ford Capri 2.0 Ghia, '15 Honda Civic (sloooooww..)
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Spannerdemon
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #110 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 11:19pm » |
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Just quickly Bruce, got to get some sleep now.
Quote:replaced EDIS multiplug due to poor connections inside it. (car would not start at all prior to this)
EDIS unit replaced |
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I wonder, is it possible to wrongly connect the EDIS unit? I don't know, but just reading this, made me wonder? Just a wild thought.
THIS might help.
HERE
It's certainly a brain-teaser this one.
Back tomorrow!
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TiberiuS
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Ex. 1996 2.3 Ultima - RIP P789 KHJ
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #111 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 11:28pm » |
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So much has been said now, forgot he's changed it 
All depends if the coils are still firing when it stalls, doubt it's possible for the module to suddenly make them fire out of phase, let alone two of them
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Bruce - '07 Jaguar XKR coupe, '95 Jaguar XJ Sport 4.0, '82 Ford Capri 2.0 Ghia, '15 Honda Civic (sloooooww..)
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Highlander
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13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #112 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 11:44pm » |
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The EDIS multiplug was changed, there are 11 wires to it, the were cut and reconnected one at a time to avoid any mistake.
All battery wiring and engine bay wiring is in exceptional condition compared to a lot of Scorpios I have seen, this car has been well looked after in the past, not the rusty oily engine bay you see on a lot of them.
Not been back to have another play yet but keen on the temperature sender idea.
when the car cuts out both fuel and spark are still present.
The car runs almost the exact amount of time each time.
22ish minutes i think at the last count.
Alister has a couple of known working coil packs he's going to try (FMD say they fitted new ones a couple of weeks ago)
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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Spannerdemon
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #113 on: Jun 7th, 2007, 7:41am » |
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Loch Ness Monster in the fuel lines is giving "Humpy Running".
Sorry Stuart!! This thing must be getting you both to the point of insanity.
Is the EDIS unit EXACTLY the same type as the original for the car? It may not be programmed in the same way.
Pull those power cables anyway. My own car is also in exceptional condition, and the engine bay is an engineers dream, but those cables are still probably as old as the car and just MAY not be as sound as they look at first glance.
One thing I'm constantly reminded of when working with cars is to never discount anything. Even 'brand new' or replacement parts can be defective, and parts that 'look OK' are often not Ok.
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Dave2302
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2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #114 on: Jun 7th, 2007, 11:31am » |
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Quote:| One thing I'm constantly reminded of when working with cars is to never discount anything. Even 'brand new' or replacement parts can be defective, and parts that 'look OK' are often not Ok. |
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Couldn't agree more actually.
If we rebuild an auto trans and it gives a problem afterwards we diagnose it exactly the same as we would if we had not touched the car !!!
As your still getting spark and fuel after engine cut out I doubt it will be ECU, Crank/Cam sensor or EDIS related. AFAIK EDIS only switches the coil packs and determine the ignition advance, we have actually used different ones on different engines in the past to get more advance when hi performance tuning, so they can be interchanged.
I'm still thinking overfuelling issue, when your next working on it, as soon as it cuts out, kill the ignition, wait 5 mins to allow excess fuel to evaporate, then try full throttle flooded engine start procedure to see if it fires up
Obviously if you can get a scanner with "live data" this will show you from the drivers seat what the injection times, temp sensor and fuel trims are doing. A cheap CO meter up the exhaust will also pinpoint fuelling issues as will a fuel pressure gauge to check the FPR function, if you can get hold of this kit it will speed up the diagnosis immensly.
Regards Dave.
P.S. We'll be coming up to Scotland in a couple of months, so if you haven't sorted it by then I'll bring some test kit and Hurlimanns / Hamlets LOL 
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Alastair
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2.3 Ghia X & MGB Roadster
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #115 on: Jun 10th, 2007, 12:05pm » |
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Quick update - ( I haven't managed to talk to Stuart yet)
Re the coil packs - supposedly new 6 weeks ago during all the checks we have done over the last several weeks we had noticed the on one coil pack the multi pin connection ( on the pack itself ) could move - not necessarily loose inside but moveable whereas the other pack connector was tight.
Any way I changed the coil pack, rechecked the adjacent wiring and astarted the car.
The record to date for running had been 22 mins. today it was still running after 555 minurtes and showin no signs of stopping. I shut it down, had a coffee,and 15 mins later restarted the car.
Started ok and ran for three minutes and then hesitated, hunted briefly and then died. Would restart immediately and if the revs were held at 2000 then would run for 30 secs or so. After 15 mins. tried Dave's suggestion of a full throttle start but no go, it did however start with no throttle and run for two mins, hunting a little and then died again.
Regarding Temperature sensors - while the car was running for the 55 mins I was continually monitoring the outside air temperature readings: -
the left hand (trip control reading) moved during the 55 minutes from 59 to 62 whereas the right hand (self test computer) went from 60 to 81. I don't know if this means anything about making the car cut out but it was mentioned in a previous response.
Back tothe drawing board but its now running longer when it does - if you see what I mean
Alastair
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Alastair
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2.3 Ghia X & MGB Roadster
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #116 on: Jun 27th, 2007, 9:37pm » |
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Hi Guys
I'm not sure which category to place this post in, so here goes: -
News: - my car (touch wood) appears to be sorted
Problems: - started by me on 24/04/07 "Idle Control Valve"
started by Highlander on 19/05/07 " Fuel pump"
The response to the problem (8 pages) was staggering and I thank
you all. The problem was basically the EDIS unit but plus a wiring
fault from the EDIS unit to the ECU. This meant that at times the
voltage to the pump was suddenly dropped from 12 volts to less than 6 volts which stopped it dead. (see under OBD)
G/N Advice There are thankfully an increase in " Newbie" members on this forum
and the advice would be to listen to the responses which you get to
your posts and try them all. The original problem, on my car, was
diagnosed immediately by Highlander as being the EDIS unit.
unfortunately the one we replaced it with may have been faulty and
the wiring problem did not help matters.
OBD: - I'm told the following has to happen to discover the problem I had (and
forgive me because I have no idea what any of this means) you need: -
Pin 1 EDIS to Pin 48 PCM (ECU) - black and white
A four channel scope
Channel 1 EDIS positive - Ignition feed
Channel 2 EDIS ground
Channel 3 PIP signal
Channel 4 Crankshaft Sensor
Conclusion : - Whew you say but don't be like that.
I want to thank each and every one that responded and I want to
especiallly thank Highlander without whose Knowledge, support
and friendship the outcome may have been entirely different.
Thank you
Here endeth the tale
Alastair
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scorpio_man
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Ford Kuga awd
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #117 on: Jun 27th, 2007, 9:43pm » |
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hi there
well done in sticking with it.
a lot of people would've sold up by now.
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Spannerdemon
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #118 on: Jun 27th, 2007, 9:58pm » |
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Well done Alistair. And to you Stuart for all the help you've given him.
A nightmare of a job, now over.
Really pleased for you.
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Highlander
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #119 on: Jun 27th, 2007, 10:42pm » |
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That was one of the worst ones yet!
Right... who's next?
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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