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Topic: Fuel pump / electrics (Read 10565 times) |
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
Posts: 2918
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #80 on: May 30th, 2007, 9:18pm » |
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Just looked back through the posts:
on May 22nd, 2007, 9:31pm, Highlander wrote:Also, remember the fuel pump clicking every 30 seconds or so when the ignition is on? does this suggest a leak/pressure loss in the system somewhere maybe? like its trying to top it up?
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Just tried this, but my pump doesn’t appear to do it, but I can hear the fan that draws air through the climate control panel pulse every 30 seconds, are you sure it’s not that you can hear? (It runs even when the rotary dial is set to off).
on May 29th, 2007, 8:38pm, Alastair wrote: when trying to restart immediately afterwards the speedo and rev gauges go round the dials although the battery is sound - is this a clue ?
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If this is happening ONLY after the engine dies it does seem to point to an electrical problem.
If you have an OBD lead capable of reading ABS, try reading the PATS module for a fault code – I find it’s slow to respond and you may have to try a few times. If you just have the blue lead try the enhanced PCM page. Using an un-programmed key I got a P1260 TD,VI (theft detected vehicle immobilised).
Make sure you are connected before going to the enhanced page otherwise you get no codes & no warning that you aren’t connected.
Dave
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ABS multiplug wheel sensor pins MK IV or MK 20
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Highlander
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13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #81 on: May 30th, 2007, 9:36pm » |
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Its definitely the fuel pump clicking every 30 secs not the fan and the battery I think is sitting fairly low, it only gets 12mins charging at a time every time it starts and thats at idle. we've had to jump start it a couple of times.
Friday morning is the big test. we're changing the filter, going to bypass the entire fuel line with a different pump and an external 12v supply.
I have a complete fuel line spare in case we need to replace it.
Stuart
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:I give up !  Too much for an old boy!  |
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Highlander
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #82 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 4:11pm » |
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Latest update 
Replaced the Fuel pressure regulator
We have ruled out the fuel system. Fuel is getting through ok, injectors were removed and viewed working.
We are also getting a good regular spark.
Car ran for 24 mins today, 22 yesterday. it runs faultlessly then coughs and dies and will not restart until hours later.
Once the car has cut out, if the ignition is left on the injectors will release fuel every 10 or 20 seconds, all injectors operate at the same time??
I assume this shouldnt happen??
We are of the opinion that something is throwing the injector timing out after a certain time or after certain running conditions are met??
Definitely the electronic side though, the mechanics are working fine.
Ideas as always welcome
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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Highlander
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #83 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 9:05pm » |
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Camshaft sensor and crankshaft sensor replaced - no difference
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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Dave
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Tourmallard 24v (ex-owner)
Posts: 1984
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #84 on: Jun 2nd, 2007, 9:01am » |
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Whats the wiring like around the engine bay
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Life after the Scorpio ain't easy..
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Highlander
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #85 on: Jun 2nd, 2007, 9:57am » |
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Had a couple of minor repairs on the fuel cut off loom where it had been physically damaged, not rotten but its in good condition as is the rest of the wiring in the car.
We did have to replace the plug to the EDIS unit as the wiring was weak and had broken where it entered the plug.
BUT the car will fire every day without exception and run perfectly for 12 - 24 minutes before dying and not restarting
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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TiberiuS
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Ex. 1996 2.3 Ultima - RIP P789 KHJ
Posts: 2257
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #86 on: Jun 2nd, 2007, 11:21am » |
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Other than monitoring the voltages to various parts I'm stumped. Always sounded like an electrical gremlin to me, sounded to easy for it to be a blocked filter...life is never that simple. I know how doolally the gremlins can be on old electrical gear, could be anything from a plug which is getting heated by the engine and losing contact to a damaged loom somewhere either getting shorted or losing contact with the heat.
Are the injectors still pulsing when it dies? Have you tried another PATS module?
Still sounds like something with the anti theft/immobiliser to me, just a feeling I get about it 
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Bruce - '07 Jaguar XKR coupe, '95 Jaguar XJ Sport 4.0, '82 Ford Capri 2.0 Ghia, '15 Honda Civic (sloooooww..)
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Highlander
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #87 on: Jun 2nd, 2007, 11:26am » |
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not tried a PATS module no, there are never any codes flashing, the engine does try and start after it cuts out, its still getting fuel and a spark but the injector timing seems to be wrong??
Wouldnt a PATS fault prevent this happening?
The injectors shouldnt operate if the ignition is only turned onto position 2 though should they
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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Jonnycab
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Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
Posts: 3900
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #88 on: Jun 2nd, 2007, 5:54pm » |
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Another wild stab in the dark  ....
....Have you tried replacing R19 (engine management).....gotta be worth ruling that out 
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Highlander
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #89 on: Jun 2nd, 2007, 7:00pm » |
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Yep, one of the first things we tried.
Heres what we've done and ruled out so far.
Fuelling sytem is fine, fuel rail removed and injectors viewed working.
The engine is getting a good spark, no problem there even when hot
replaced EDIS multiplug due to poor connections inside it. (car would not start at all prior to this)
EDIS unit replaced
IACV replaced
Camshaft sensor replaced
Crankshaft sensor replaced
ECU replaced
Fuel pressure regulator replaced
Fuel cut off loom all checked ok
Wiring looms all look in good condition
OBD scan - no codes, everything looking normal
Fuses all ok
Relay 17 and 19 replaced
PATS working ok
The cars starts and runs perfectly for 20 mins, will rev freely and idle rock solid around the 850-870 mark then cuts out and wont restart despite having fuel and a spark!
It will cough as if its trying to start but it wont fire unless its left overnight
Can smell petrol from the exhaust when trying to restart
Basically it starts, runs perfect, warms up, cuts out and wont start till the next day
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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Neil W
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Posts: 148
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #90 on: Jun 2nd, 2007, 7:34pm » |
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I am no motor vehicle diagnostics expert or even good at maintaining cars, but sitting back and reading the unfolding saga it seems to me that the problem is associated with either time or heat or both. OK, that much is obvious . And from your description of how the engine stops, that seems to suggest fuel starvation rather than an electrical problem.
We know that the fuel pump supplies more fuel than the car needs (except perhaps at continuous high revs) with the surplus being returned to the tank. So, could the amount being supplied under load (thin pipes and a filter) be not quite sufficient, so that the engine is drawing on slightly more fuel than supplied until eventually there is not enough to run the engine? That would suggest a fuel pump diaphram problem which leaks under load, or fuel filter perhaps, or fuel pipe problem. Could the main fuel supply pipe to the rail be partially blocked and as it heats up it causes the pipe to block completely?
During all your testing, was the bonnet shut during engine running periods? If it was, then could a build up of heat in the engine bay be causing something to change? I am thinking here about coil packs and HT leads, as everything else seems to have been considered. Could the battery be not getting charged up and eventually failing to supply sufficient power for the coils etc? Batteries do recover somewhat when left for some time.
Just some thoughts; apologies if you have considered all these ideas before  .
Neil W.
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1998 Scorpio Ultima Cosworth facelift saloon, reg S896VOG. Sold Feb 2010. Now own Mercedes-Benz E320 CDi.
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TiberiuS
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Ex. 1996 2.3 Ultima - RIP P789 KHJ
Posts: 2257
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #91 on: Jun 2nd, 2007, 8:02pm » |
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Neil, I think Stuart has pretty much eliminated the fuel system. Anyway, if there was a blockage gradually restricting the supply the engine would cough and splutter quite badly, if wouldn't just hesitate and die.
I'd bet my life on it being a switch or connector somewhere but I'm stumped if I can think where
Another stab in the dark but what about switch/contact cleaner on every conector you can find?
I know we've been here but you're certain the pump is still getting constant voltage feed AFTER it stalls and won't restart? Could indicate a sensor problem if the ECU is cutting feed to the pump relay.
Scan?
All I can think now is work backwards and see where that leads, you know the injectors are firing, it's got a spark
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Bruce - '07 Jaguar XKR coupe, '95 Jaguar XJ Sport 4.0, '82 Ford Capri 2.0 Ghia, '15 Honda Civic (sloooooww..)
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Dave2302
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2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #92 on: Jun 5th, 2007, 9:51pm » |
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Where do I send the Hurlimans and Hamlets LOL
Have you looked at the plug on the engine temp sender, (the fuel injection one), these have been known to go high resistance when they warm up and give the engine cold start fuelling hence it will only start again when the overfuel situation has evaporated and it is cold again.
Regards Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Highlander
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #93 on: Jun 5th, 2007, 10:42pm » |
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Not tried that Dave, makes sense.
Alistair is going to get his ECU checked
Would a cracked inlet manifold once warm allow enough air in to stop the engine and not let it restart??
Also wondered about the gearbox, would it be possible for a wiring fault or problem with the box (its an auto) to give these symptoms?
It cuts out whether the car is idling or driving once warm.
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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cossie_al
Full Member
Ex 24v
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #94 on: Jun 5th, 2007, 11:00pm » |
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on Jun 5th, 2007, 10:42pm, Highlander wrote:
Would a cracked inlet manifold once warm allow enough air in to stop the engine and not let it restart??
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Stuart,
I once had this on a bike okay the inlets were four seperate rubber jobs but the bike started fine when cold but would not start when warm unless it was bump started. also it ran like a bag of spanners once warmed trough. The splits in the rubbers were tiny but when replaced the fault was gone.
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Highlander
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #95 on: Jun 5th, 2007, 11:35pm » |
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Yep, i'm not too familiar with the 2.3 engine but I know it suffers from cracks in the plastic inlet manifold.
I'll start another thread and find out what the symptoms of this are.
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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Scorpius
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95 Cossie in metalic Green. 96 Cossie in red
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #96 on: Jun 5th, 2007, 11:48pm » |
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I went through 3 Inlet manifolds on my 2.3 due to cracks. However, there were ALL in the water side. and due to head gasket blown.
In the end, they sprayed so much hot water and steam on the TPS that it gave out.
Ian
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Highlander
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #97 on: Jun 5th, 2007, 11:53pm » |
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What happened when your TPS failed?
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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Tompion
Administrator
1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
Posts: 2918
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #98 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 12:56am » |
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on Jun 1st, 2007, 4:11pm, Highlander wrote:Once the car has cut out, if the ignition is left on the injectors will release fuel every 10 or 20 seconds, all injectors operate at the same time??
I assume this shouldnt happen??
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With this happening I wouldn't have thought a manifold leak likely to be the problem.
I would have thought the ECU, but as you've tried another & the same happened - it seems unlikely you'd have 2 units with the same unusual fault.
I wondered about an earthing fault, maybe run a separate earth to the ECU and/or a direct feed.
Have you inspected the join to the live wires for the injectors? in the black trunking over the injectors as they are only stamped together (thinking along the lines of the injectors somehow ending up in series).
Have you pulled the wires out of the split conduit from the big plug on the wing to the injectors - some of mine were split lengthways. It was only when I got the fuel shut off loom off I realised just how bad it was. Check where the TPS wires come out of there conduit – under the tape.
Dave
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Highlander
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Re: Fuel pump / electrics
« Reply #99 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 9:05am » |
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We've thoroughly checked the entire fuel cut off loom. A couple of small repairs done on it but its in very good condition.
We have a spark and fuel, i was thinking along the lines of air now.
If the manifold has a crack, i assume it would be ok initially until it heats up, expands and draws air??
If the air inlet pipe is removed from the throttle body while the engine is running it stalls the engine which is exactly the symptom we have.
And more places we can look for air leaks?
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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