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Topic: Won't start, AA baffled, any ideas? (Read 1570 times) |
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Dixon
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1997 2.9 12v Ultima
Posts: 10
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Won't start, AA baffled, any ideas?
« on: Nov 24th, 2007, 2:46am » |
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Hi All -
My faithful '97 2.9 12-v Ultima Auto is refusing to start, flooding every time, even though all seems OK.
After a 200-mile drive at the weekend, it had been standing in last week's pouring rain for three days. When it wouldn't start in the very cold damp morning (engine turned over fine but did not fire up/catch) I left it a few hours till the sun had warmed the world a little, unplugged, dried and then WD40'd every ignition cable/connection in sight and tried again - no difference.
Called the trusty AA. Patrolman spent two hours, with following result:
Spark Plugs - old but sparking OK
Fuel Supply - squirting away fine
Fuses - F31, F34, F37, F42 all OK
Ignition circuit - all checked OK
Temp sensor apparently OK (tried starting with it in and out of circuit)
Seems the engine is flooding at every attempt to start, hence no fire even though the plugs were all sparking.
Even the uber-techs who'd been consulted at AA HQ couldn't assist any further, so he gave up after 2 hrs (good effort!), recommending I get new plugs, as the existing ones were old and filthy (and dripping with petrol!) and if that didn't work, well, possibly big money...
So went to the motor factors today, and discovered that the Girl needs plugs with an in-built resistor (typical babe), whereas the ones which had been in there were the non-resistor type. Wonder if that could have done damage?
(NB - Removed from car were NGK BP6EF instead of recommended NGK BPR6EF - additional letter "R" is important, I now know! - ref page on this site: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/diy.htm
I've had this Scorp for a year, and two of these plugs were near-as-d**n rusted in, so these wrong 'uns had obviously been in there for some fair time!)
Anyway - half a dozen new plugs in, made sure battery was still fully charged, tried again, and the engine STARTED to fire on the very first turn, but then reverted back to just turning over and over and over. Big smell of fuel, so obviously flooded again.
Figured the flooding may have dispersed after a couple of hours and tried again with same depressing result.
Anyone else have experience like this? I'm dreading the thought it's a major engine management issue. because the funds aren't there for an expensive job like that.
If the plugs hadn't been sparking, I'd suspect the electrics, because for the past couple of months the security light on top of the dash has been glowing on and off and on again at random whilst driving, instead of turning off when the ignition's on. Also, lights were left on overnight a couple of months back which resulted in dead battery - appeared to be OK after recharging, but maybe something happened then? And now I come to think of it, I'd been puzzled by apparent lack of power uphill - strange for a three-litre.
All hints and clues very gratefully received. There's plenty of life left in this girl yet (just run in at 105k) so it would be a real shame to be faced with a totally uneconomic repair, or else begin The Search For The Next Scorp - Volume 4 (yup, I'm an addict) 
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Jonnycab
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Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
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Re: Won't start, AA baffled, any ideas?
« Reply #1 on: Nov 24th, 2007, 3:04am » |
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A faulty fuel pressure regulator can cause this problem 
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Snoopy
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Re: Won't start, AA baffled, any ideas?
« Reply #2 on: Nov 24th, 2007, 7:27am » |
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Have you tried starting with throttle fully to the floor as it seems you have really flooded it .
The 12v use the "old " technology viz a coil and distributor. If its firing to start with then I would suspect fuel but a weak lead on the dizzy or even a worn rotor arm can give you these sorts pf problems. give the coil a clean and then a squirt of WD 40 on ALL the leads and dizzy cap and try the FTF method see how you get on . As this only seesm t have happened after rain and standing for a couple of days .
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Dixon
Newbie
1997 2.9 12v Ultima
Posts: 10
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Re: Won't start, AA baffled, any ideas?
« Reply #3 on: Nov 24th, 2007, 12:10pm » |
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Thanks for the replies, guys:
@johnnycab - Any idea how I could test myself if the fuel pressure regulator is faulty? I'm not techy-minded - people pay me to keep away from their stuff - so any idiot's guide would be good, if poss.
@snoopy - no, never tried starting it with "Throttle To Floor" because I always understood that it was exactly that which caused engine flooding! Anyway, just gave that a go, and no change. (Fairly mild weather here this morning, not too cold or wet/damp as when all this started) The starter turns over perfectly, and I even had a couple of very brief "coughs" just now, but still won't start. The AA guy had the cap off the distributor and cleaned everything out, and WD40'd it all (I'd done the leads before he arrived) so that's all been done. And as the AA guy had each and every plug out, cleaned and tested for sparking, then it sounds like its not electrical to me (although I could be missing something). Just wondering though if the actual leads could be b****red - but six wouldn't go all at once, would they?
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mr._floppy
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Posts: 100
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Re: Won't start, AA baffled, any ideas?
« Reply #4 on: Nov 24th, 2007, 1:35pm » |
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Can you categorically and definately rule out the battery ?
I had similar a similar non-start situation after my 2lt 16v had had a 3 day hiatus in cold and wet weather.
It cranked away like a good 'un but would not fire, gave it a jump start, presto-hey, all was well again.
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Snoopy
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Re: Won't start, AA baffled, any ideas?
« Reply #5 on: Nov 24th, 2007, 5:44pm » |
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Well if its not ALL the leads then try swoping the coil to Distributor lead with say No.1 plug or should that be No2 and see if it goes then !
If it fires and won't run you have to surmise it is fuel related . Check ALL the vacum pipes as well that can cause it not to run especially the one under IACV. 
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TRACEYS_LIMO
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Re: Won't start, AA baffled, any ideas?
« Reply #6 on: Nov 24th, 2007, 6:03pm » |
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its just along shot my 2litre did a similar thing the other day it really stank of petrol and would not run, although every time i tried it would fire and die, i was ready to start taking it apart and i checked the fuel cut off in the boot. its worth checking, nothing lost
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Dixon
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1997 2.9 12v Ultima
Posts: 10
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Re: Won't start, AA baffled, any ideas?
« Reply #7 on: Nov 24th, 2007, 6:43pm » |
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Thanks again for all your suggestions, guys:
@Mr Floppy: "Can you categorically and definitely rule out the battery?"
I'm with you on this because this was my first and biggest thought. But I think we can say yes, because (a) the AA man tried to jump start from his vehicle without success, and (b) I have a mains-powered charger which I've used to make sure the battery was at full power before every attempt. Will try again tomorrow though.
@Snoopy - "try swopping the coil to Distributor lead with, say, No.1 plug"
Not sure I fully understand this - are you suggesting I power each of the plugs in turn, direct from the coil, thereby cutting out the distributor? Didn't know I could do that! Will check it tomorrow in daylight. (assume you mean with the plug in position, but if so, would the engine run anyway with just one cylinder sparking, or am I missing the point?)
"Check ALL the vacuum pipes esp the one under IACV."
The four letters "IACV" in your post looked like it was a link (to groups.msn) but actually didn't lead me anywhere - http 404 page unknown etc. But from the data here on this site (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/iacvdata.htm) it looks way beyond my comprehension - it's a tech diagram and explanation of what it does/how it works to my untrained eye, but not how to test/fix it, and even the fault-finder page at:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/faultfinds.htm
refers to this IACV only if there's poor idling. Frankly, I'd love to have even that! You clearly know something I don't, and it seems highly feasible, so could I please ask you for more info which I could try out?
@ Tracey's Limo - "fuel cut off in the boot"
I agree, nothing lost checking, and I will do that in daylight, although it doesn't appear logical that the engine could be flooding if the fuel is cut off. I'm learning though that not everything is logical with these dear motors!
Guys - thanks for your help - will go through the various routines you've suggested and post back here tomorrow with the results.
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Simmo
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Re: Won't start, AA baffled, any ideas?
« Reply #8 on: Nov 24th, 2007, 7:28pm » |
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Dixon. I think Snoopy is saying swop the leads over so that you can see if the distributor lead is u/s and he is saying check the vacuum pipe UNDER the IACV not the IACV itself. Have a look at THIS page ,find picture 10 and that will show you the IACV location etc.
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Snoopy
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Re: Won't start, AA baffled, any ideas?
« Reply #9 on: Nov 25th, 2007, 8:33am » |
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OK In VERY simple terms what I meant youto try was .....
Unplug the lead from the coil to the distributor and pull off one of the plug leads and plug that into the coil and the distributor.. That way you will know that the main feed from the coil to the distributor is not at fault.
None are asking you to do anything very technical its all SIMPLE stuff and VERY basic.
If as you suggest you cannot do these simple things suggest you get down to a reputable garage and ask them to try .
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harry.m1byt
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Re: Won't start, AA baffled, any ideas?
« Reply #10 on: Nov 25th, 2007, 10:32am » |
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Just to explain a few points....
Putting the throttle to the floor in a normal car (carb) reduces the vacuum in the intake so no fuel is drawn in - it lets maximum air through blowing out any flooding. The fuel in the Scorps injection system is cut off, if the pedal is floored when the engine is cranked over - hence any fuel inside the engine will be blown out. In other words that fixes a flooded engine. What you should never do on a carb'ed engine is pump the throttle, because a carb has has an enrichment pump which pumps extra fuel in each time you press - hence it is almost guaranteed to flood.
To start the Scorp, there should be no need touch the accelerator pedal at all - the ECU should do all that is required if you just turn the key. Some of us 12v owners have noticed that if you do a cold start and then happen to stall the engine in the first few seconds, then it can flood. So to restart you need to do a wide open throttle cranking session, to clear it before trying again to start.
The fuel cut off is the red button in the boot, located on the floor alongside the boot lock mechanism. Just push the red button in to reset it. It is supposed to trigger if you have a crash to cut the fuel supply (pump) off, but it can sometimes be triggered by just a hard thump to the rear of the car.
Unignited fuel in the cylinders will make the plugs wet, making it seem as if the engine might be flooding - or it might actually be flooding. If actually flooding, then I would suggest the thing to look at is the fuel pressure regulator. You can check it with a fuel pressure meter.
Ignoring mechanical problems, an engine needs three things before it will fire -
1. Air and fuel going in, in roughly the right proportions.
2. A suitable spark
3. And the spark to happen at the right moment.
1. Check the fuel pressure.
2. Recheck that the spark is a good one. Take off a plug lead and connect it to a spare plug with the gap opened up. Clamp the plug body to the engines metalwork, then get someone to crank the engine over. You should see and hear a good heathy crack at the plug each time it fires.
3. Make sure the timing is firing it at about right moment. Arrangement as above, but take out the plug who's lead you have borrowed plus the rest of the plugs [IMPORTANT for your safety].
Find a bit of wood dowel/brush handle or whatever to push down hard on the empty plug hole to form a rough seal, the one who's plug lead you tested earlier - then find some way to turn the engine over slowly, in its normal direction. A socket on the end of the crankshaft pulley bolt works well.
Now with the ignition on, slowly turn the crank pulley, until the cylinder pressure tries to blow your dowel away from its plug seat - that is the piston rising on its compression stroke. Towards the end of the compression stroke you should hear the plug click as it fires.
The above is just a rough check. Usually if the timing has slipped, it will have slipped out a long way and be obvious by the above check.
Take the distributer cap off and make sure the rotor turns as the engine turns and that you cannot turn the rotor with your fingers it shoud have a small amount of movement but not turn far. Try rotating the entire distributer - that should be solid and not move at all.
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pete from Hull
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Non Scorpio at the moment, but still interested...
Posts: 1365
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Re: Won't start, AA baffled, any ideas?
« Reply #11 on: Nov 25th, 2007, 11:00am » |
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Quote: author=harry.m1byt link=board=Problems;num=1195872416;start=0#11 date=11/25/07 at 10:32:52
Ignoring mechanical problems, an engine needs three things before it will fire -
1. Air and fuel going in, in roughly the right proportions.
2. A suitable spark
3. And the spark to happen at the right moment.
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Also Compression? (if the cylinder head gasket has gone) ? just another thought.... 
pete
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Gozz
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Re: Won't start, AA baffled, any ideas?
« Reply #12 on: Nov 26th, 2007, 10:46pm » |
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You wont harm the old lump with non resistor plugs.I have experienced problems with my funeral cars whereby the engine loom is breaking up and is very susceptible to water.In particular three of the wires that leave the ignition module on the back of the distributer go to the EEC 1V power control module behind and below the glovebox.They have a shroud round them similar to TV coaxial cable,and over time,especially if the loom is of Arnitel variety they disintegrate and pass signals between each other thus telling porkies to the baffled PCM.The worst location is along the rocker box and round into the big connector on the offside inner wing,a certain amount can be bad after the connector and half way across the front of the car near the bumper.These looms have long been obsolete,so the only thing to do is first gently dismantle the wires on the engine look for multiple cracking of the insulation then find the three signal wires bound in a shroud as one cable,gently open it and examine.I usually make a new one of these,right to the end of the damage,then rebind every wire to ensure insulation.It sounds daunting but its not very technical,just a matter of time and great patience.Many a good Scorpio has been weighed in because of this type of problem.A terrible waste!
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Gozz
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Re: Won't start, AA baffled, any ideas?
« Reply #13 on: Nov 26th, 2007, 11:01pm » |
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Forgot to mention,there is a schrader valve on the nearside of the fuel rail under the intake plenum nearer to the back.You could check your fuel pressure with that,or insert a pressure gauge into the fuel line via a T piece at the main fuel rail union
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Dixon
Newbie
1997 2.9 12v Ultima
Posts: 10
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Re: Won't start, AA baffled, any ideas?
« Reply #14 on: Dec 13th, 2007, 10:10pm » |
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Hi Chaps -
Apologies for only now being able to update you all - family, health etc., and thanks to everyone who's been trying to help - really appreciated.
First the good news - she's almost going again, but only almost, and drinking juice at a truly phenomenal rate. Here's the detail...
With some tech-minded help, I tried ALL the suggestions you very kindly gave, except the re-wiring job. Everything - and I mean EVERYTHING you suggested – either checked out OK or proved unsuccessful , so it looked like Gozz’s rather daunting re-wiring suggestion was the only option left.
But first, on a whim, I called the AA again (naughty, I know, but I was desperate) A different guy arrived - and had the girl running in fifteen minutes!
In a nutshell, he reckoned a temperature sensor somewhere was telling the car it was minus 20, and chucking masses of fuel into the engine. He pulled out the fuse for the Fuel Pump, and ran a couple of wires from those fuse-box terminals to the driver's seat, so he could make and break the circuit as he was sitting in the driver's seat turning the ignition key to start. He "blipped" this connection, and - LO! - as if by magic she coughed and burst into life. (Well, OK, more limped rather than burst, but she caught - that's the point). She was really grumpy and lumpy till she warmed up, but eventually sounded to be running smooth.
Thereafter, I'm now able to start her up most times (but not always) by using the "Throttle to Floor" method at cold start-up, which is - as suggested above by Snoopy & then Harry.m1byt - keeping flooding at bay. It's worked seven out of eight attempts so far. (After the failed attempt which I assumed resulted in drowning the engine, I went back to the car after a couple of hours, and it worked OK)
So, she's back on the road, but the petrol consumption is truly horrendous. Following advice elsewhere on the site about re-setting calibrations after dead-battery, I did the 60-40mph decelerate routine a couple of times just to be sure it wasn’t that. The readout is showing 7-8 mpg on the flat at times, and even with foot off throttle going down hill never reads less than 60 (whereas that downhill-no-throttle exercise used to read out 90+.)
So I assume that the mixture is madly rich, but I'm not sure now how to address that - there seem to be a couple of sensors which I need to read up on.
So, current odd behaviour which is possibly related…
1. starting from cold and in Park or Neutral, engine revs fine if foot on throttle keeps revs up to, say, 3500. But if gentry ease foot off throttle, revs fall gently keeping pace with easing off the accellerator, but then at about 3000 they suddenly plummet right down to about 2200 and the engine gets lumpy.
2. Water Temp gauge behaving very erratic. Sometimes shows normal, but usually stays at the bottom of dial (this has been the case since I bought the car a year ago). During driving, it will occasionally move up to normal, then fall back down again to cold. Sometimes it moves up to normal as it should on startup, but then eventually falls back to just above zero.
3. The red security light on the top of the dash remains on even when the car is running. Sometimes it glows brighter than others, sometimes goes off for a short while, then comes back on again. When the car’s locked, though, it seems to blink normally as it should.
4. Electronic fuel consumption readout says she’s drinking like a fish. Used to have average of 20-22, now showing 14. As mentioned before, can be a low as 8 mpg even on the flat.
I’m now about to trawl the site for info about how to find / calibrate / fix / replace whatever sensor might be misbehaving – any advice and suggestions would be most appreciated! (Or should that be another topic, moderators?)
Once again, thanks to everyone who's helped out so far.
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Simmo
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Re: Won't start, AA baffled, any ideas?
« Reply #15 on: Dec 14th, 2007, 8:32am » |
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Have a look at THIS page. If you look at the 'sensors' section it tells you that the engine temperature and air intake sensors both affect the amount of fuel provided. If one is reading -20 I guess that's a good place to start. The temperature gauge is fed by its own sensor which is seperate from the one feeding the 'brain'. The gauge sensor has only one wire to it, usually with a push on 'banjo' shaped connector and the two units are side by side on the 2.0ltr ,on the thermostat housing. Have you checked that the thermostat is actually fitted and/or working?.
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gozz
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Re: Won't start, AA baffled, any ideas?
« Reply #16 on: Dec 14th, 2007, 10:54pm » |
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The 12v water sensors are in the top of the inlet manifold on the nearside at the front,as Simmo says the small one with single wire is the gauge sender unit,these do fail in various ways but they are cheap at motor factors,the larger one is the sensor for the PCM,whip the air intake hoses off,this eases the job considerably.The intake air sensor is on the offside of the plenum.The manifold actual pressure unit is on the nearside inner wing,a flat plastic box with a plug and a vacuum pipe attached.Try to do a substitution after you have checked that there is a strong vacuum feed.This unit affects fuelling,but whether or not any faulty sensor would do it to a massive degree,is questionable.
Best of luck GOZZ
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