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Pjot
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Engine starts then dies
« on: Mar 9th, 2009, 1:15am » |
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Hello,I have read this forum for a few days for clues on how the engine works on my car. A friend of mine gave me his Scorpio 95mod 2,0L 16valves because the engine died when it feel like it. My friend has to call for help to change tires, so this car was not for him anymore.
Symptoms: Starts right away when left overnight. First minute I can hardly see any exhaust coming out the rear pipe and engine running smoothly. Then the smoke is VERY visible but still the engine is running smoothly till it completly shut down. Sometimes it hesitates for a few seconds before it shut down. The ignition plugs is soted, (parden my english, I`m from Norway), which as I remember is caused by to rich air/fuel mixture.
There are good sparks at all times.
Measured the fuel pressure and it was constant at 3 bar as long as the engine was running. It reached 3,2bar the moment it died, and also 3,2 before I started the engine. So I`m sure the FPR works fine, as well as fuel pump relay and fuel cut of switch.
This draw my attention to the injectors, I listen to the engine and I can hear a weak clicking from the injectors. Kind of the same sound as a relay. Thinking this is the sound of injectors opening and closing. After engine dies this sound dissapears, when cranking the engine I sometimes hear a click and the engine starts for a split second.
Normally the engine starts first turn of the key and runs for about 5-10min. After that it fires up but dies immediately.
There is a constant 12v supply to the injectors when the engine won`t start. I haven`t measured how it is when it runs, but it dosen`t seem right.
Hope someone can help me with this problem, cause I can`t solve this on my own.
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1995 Scorpio 2L 16v Automatic
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: Engine starts then dies
« Reply #1 on: Mar 9th, 2009, 2:40am » |
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Hi and welcome, with regard the constant 12volts to the injectors, this is correct, it’s the earth that is switched on/off by the engine control. I think the fuel rail pressure should drop about 0.5bar at tickover. You can check that by pulling off the hose & plugging the end that goes from the pressure regulator to the inlet manifold – not that I’d expect it to cause the problem you have if it wasn’t dropping the pressure.
Dave
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Jonnycab
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Re: Engine starts then dies
« Reply #2 on: Mar 9th, 2009, 3:23am » |
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Lambda sensor or blocked cat ?  ...... 
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Pjot
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Re: Engine starts then dies
« Reply #3 on: Mar 9th, 2009, 10:11am » |
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on Mar 9th, 2009, 2:40am, Tompion wrote:Hi and welcome, with regard the constant 12volts to the injectors, this is correct, it’s the earth that is switched on/off by the engine control.
Dave
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I have a constant 12v when I measure between the two pins in the connector to an injector, so I have a constant earth also. So the engine control (ECU??) is not switching at all. I will measure again later today as the car will start again.
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1995 Scorpio 2L 16v Automatic
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Pjot
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Re: Engine starts then dies
« Reply #4 on: Mar 9th, 2009, 10:17am » |
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on Mar 9th, 2009, 3:23am, Jonnycab wrote:| Lambda sensor or blocked cat ? ...... |
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Is there possible to measure the lambda sensor with minimal equipment?? Where is it located?
Blocked cat? You think someone have put a cat in the exhaust?, the pipe ain`t that big. A rat maybe??
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1995 Scorpio 2L 16v Automatic
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scorpio_man
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Ford Kuga awd
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Re: Engine starts then dies
« Reply #5 on: Mar 9th, 2009, 10:51am » |
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hi there
the lambda (pre cat) in at the bottom of the exhaust heat shield.
check it with a multi meter set to 2 volts. use the multi plug which is on the n/s inner wing. can't remember the wire colours of hand but it's not the 2 that are the same colour (white?).
btw, the lambda is screwed into the cat.
hth
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adamn
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Re: Engine starts then dies
« Reply #6 on: Mar 9th, 2009, 4:50pm » |
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hi,
blocked cat-alyzator (rat-a-lyzer ) ? hmm, don't think so (for this particular case). ussually it will come with some noticeable noise.
dead lambda? the it should go to LOS, try disconnecting the front lambda connector.
12V to the injectors - good. Should be there all the time (key on). EEC controls the ground pin (low side driver) - if still GND = bad, should be NC, use current probe to check it. Do not attempt to connect the injector directly to ground, you will kill it. If it is constantly connected to +12V/GND it will destroy itself (the coil can sustain it just for a very short period of time)
definitely - do an OBD scan, check LTFR values.
if your injectors go bad, you should get a DTC for that also.
I think, your problem is in the wiring looms. Might be the engine wiring, but I had similiar problem (are you really sure you got good spark?? do you have HV adaptor and oscilloscope to check it when running?) and my problem was in the main wiring going from EEC to EDIS and main engine connector.
there was only one way how to repair it - replacing the whole thing. (see the other thread)
if it is shorted, you will probably not find it using the simple "beep" check method. a "few minute" symptom of yours looks like the wires need to warm up and then it will short out.
well, hth -edit-
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Pjot
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Re: Engine starts then dies
« Reply #7 on: Mar 10th, 2009, 2:02am » |
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Do you know where I can buy a OBD scanner? If it`s not to expencive I think I just buy one. Is it just a plug in one end and USB port in the other end. Where can I download the software?
I only got about five minutes with the car today, I measured that injectorplugs had constant ground as well. The engine did not run as long as it used to, maybe because I fiddled with the wiring and shut down the engine to measure. it would not restart, just firing up for a second then die.
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1995 Scorpio 2L 16v Automatic
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adamn
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Re: Engine starts then dies
« Reply #8 on: Mar 10th, 2009, 12:10pm » |
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hi,
go to www.obd-2.com, you can pay using paypal
you might want to buy a TriCom product, it is working with your car (I have the same).
and you will also get CAN bus too (useful for newer cars).
don't get confused, it does not usb, just rs232, but you might use usb/com adapter
about your problem - go thru following thread:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action= display;num=1110971001
all symptoms you have look like the wiring is faulty.
disconnect EEC and then measure with ohmmeter or "beep" test if you
have ground short circuit at injectors (disconnect injector connectors also).
If you have constant ground there only if EEC is connected, then
it might be (just might be !) bad, but I think it is all in the wires !
Or the EEC might be just measuring the continuity of the circuit and then
you will find weak ground connection at injector connector, but this
won't allow enough current to flow through to activate the inj.
So definitely you should measure the current going through the wire to injector,
and measure the wires between EEC and injectors.
but - if it does have the symptoms, like it will start and then die, and again,
it is not the problem with injectors. no.
It is a general wiring problem, try to crank the engine and check the PIP signal
(if PIP is missing, then the fuel pump does NOT work also).
a.
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adamn
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Re: Engine starts then dies
« Reply #9 on: Mar 10th, 2009, 12:14pm » |
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btw.
are you sure the clicking sound comes from injectors?
if it is continuous (periodical), it might be just some relay (it does click when key is on and engine is running or not,both cases).
use stetoscope to check the source of the clicking.
it also might be the hydraulic valve tappets, if they are dead
(I have one on my engine, it sounds like a sewing machine, have to change it soon).
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Pjot
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Re: Engine starts then dies
« Reply #10 on: Mar 10th, 2009, 3:49pm » |
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on Mar 10th, 2009, 12:14pm, ad**n wrote:btw.
are you sure the clicking sound comes from injectors?
if it is continuous (periodical), it might be just some relay (it does click when key is on and engine is running or not,both cases).
use stetoscope to check the source of the clicking.
it also might be the hydraulic valve tappets, if they are dead
(I have one on my engine, it sounds like a sewing machine, have to change it soon). |
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I`m not 100% sure it`s the injectors that make that clicking noise, but it comes from that area. It is the same sound as poor valves, but it this case I think it`s not. Because the sound only appears when engine is running or just before it fires up. If the valves is responsable for the clicking it should be there at all times when cranking the engine or am I wrong?
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1995 Scorpio 2L 16v Automatic
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Pjot
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Re: Engine starts then dies
« Reply #11 on: Mar 10th, 2009, 3:53pm » |
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on Mar 10th, 2009, 12:10pm, ad**n wrote:hi,
go to www.obd-2.com, you can pay using paypal
you might want to buy a TriCom product, it is working with your car (I have the same).
and you will also get CAN bus too (useful for newer cars).
don't get confused, it does not usb, just rs232, but you might use usb/com adapter
about your problem - go thru following thread:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action= display;num=1110971001
all symptoms you have look like the wiring is faulty.
disconnect EEC and then measure with ohmmeter or "beep" test if you
have ground short circuit at injectors (disconnect injector connectors also).
If you have constant ground there only if EEC is connected, then
it might be (just might be !) bad, but I think it is all in the wires !
Or the EEC might be just measuring the continuity of the circuit and then
you will find weak ground connection at injector connector, but this
won't allow enough current to flow through to activate the inj.
So definitely you should measure the current going through the wire to injector,
and measure the wires between EEC and injectors.
but - if it does have the symptoms, like it will start and then die, and again,
it is not the problem with injectors. no.
It is a general wiring problem, try to crank the engine and check the PIP signal
(if PIP is missing, then the fuel pump does NOT work also).
a. |
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The fuel pump works fine because there is a constant 3bar at the injector rail.
Think you are right about the wiring. It looks like it`s in perfect condition, but you never know. Where is the EEC located and what does it look like?
Thank for the link on the OBD scan, will have a look at it.
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Snoopy
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Re: Engine starts then dies
« Reply #12 on: Mar 10th, 2009, 4:07pm » |
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The EEC is located above the glove box compartment ( On RHD cars)and is a silver box and held in with some security rivets which may need drilling out . The plugs are easily removed. THESE pages may help.
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Pjot
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Re: Engine starts then dies
« Reply #13 on: Mar 10th, 2009, 11:21pm » |
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Thanks Snoopy I found it. Those pages helped alot. Thank you.
I was wrong about having constant gnd, I have contant 12volts between the two plugs to each injector. If I measure between plus on plug and neg on battery I have 12v, between neg on plug and GND I have about 18kohms when switch is on. There is no contact at all when the eec is disconnected. but 18kohms is very much so I don`t know what to think of that. Maybe it`s normal I don`t know.
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Pjot
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Re: Engine starts then dies
« Reply #14 on: Mar 11th, 2009, 1:07am » |
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The clicking sound I talked about I`m 95% sure it`s from the injectors. I removed the fuelrail to have a visual on the fuel coming out of the injectors. Every time the click comes there was a little splasj of fuel on cylinder 4. I couldn`t see anything from cylinder 2 and 3. I didn`t get the fuelrail all the way of so I didn`t get a visual on cylinder 1. The splasj from cylinder 4 was greater that I thought it would be. Thinking there would be a little mist of fuel, but there was two beams of fuel coming out. Kind of what you get if you hold your finger in front of the garden hose, on a smaller scale of course.
Didn`t get the engine running for long today. I shut it of after a minute or so to measure, it did not restart.
What`s next to do? Rewiring the four GND from the eec to the injectors?
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Pjot
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Re: Engine starts then dies
« Reply #15 on: Mar 11th, 2009, 1:12am » |
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The engine didn`t run as smoothly as it used to. A little humpy in lack of a better word. I could feel it shaking when sitting in drivers seat. Felt like it was running on 3 cylinders. The spark was not as strong as it has been, maybe because of all the sot.
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Pjot
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Re: Engine starts then dies
« Reply #16 on: Mar 11th, 2009, 2:30pm » |
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on Mar 9th, 2009, 10:51am, scorpio_man wrote:hi there
the lambda (pre cat) in at the bottom of the exhaust heat shield.
check it with a multi meter set to 2 volts. use the multi plug which is on the n/s inner wing. can't remember the wire colours of hand but it's not the 2 that are the same colour (white?).
btw, the lambda is screwed into the cat.
hth |
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I checked the lamda sensor. (post cat, the one under the hood with the exhaustmanifold.) There is no 2v between any of the four wires. It`s 24 ohms between the two white ones when engine is hot. Did I understand it correctly that I disconnect the lambdasensor and measure the wiring from the lambdasensor.?? The engine run smoothly again today. No difference when lambda were connected or not. Could a defect lamdasensor causing the engine to run rich and stall.?
I will check the pre cat lambda sensor later.
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Pjot
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Re: Engine starts then dies
« Reply #17 on: Mar 11th, 2009, 2:35pm » |
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Fuel was coming out of all the injectors when engine is running, when the injectors are shutting down the engine stalls, (of course). The problem with the engine stalling must be related to the injectors. Do the signal dissapear? or is there a faulthy eec box. Where is the PIP signal coming from and how to measure it?
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scorpio_man
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Re: Engine starts then dies
« Reply #18 on: Mar 11th, 2009, 3:34pm » |
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on Mar 11th, 2009, 2:30pm, Pjot wrote:
I checked the lamda sensor. (post cat, the one under the hood with the exhaustmanifold.) There is no 2v between any of the four wires. It`s 24 ohms between the two white ones when engine is hot. Did I understand it correctly that I disconnect the lambdasensor and measure the wiring from the lambdasensor.?? The engine run smoothly again today. No difference when lambda were connected or not. Could a defect lamdasensor causing the engine to run rich and stall.?
I will check the pre cat lambda sensor later.
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hi there
the ones in the engine bay are the pre cat ones.
you need to keep the lambda sensor plugged in, just use the plugs to access the wires.
with the engine running and hot, you should get readings from about 0.2 - 0.9volts.
hth
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Pjot
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Re: Engine starts then dies
« Reply #19 on: Mar 12th, 2009, 6:57pm » |
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Then my lambda sensor must be malfunctioning. Can anyone test what happens if they unplug the pre cat lambda sensor? It made no difference on my car, but that may be because it`s not working.
Anyway, the sparks shut down yesterday I will try new coilpacks and wiring. The plugs is no longer sootening (is that a word?). I believe it is more than one error on this car. Only option left is an OBD scanning I suppose.
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