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Topic: Autobox Problem (Read 6198 times) |
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pedro_pete
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Autobox Problem
« on: Mar 30th, 2010, 1:08pm » |
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Hello everyone, my name is Pete. I hope you are all well.
I am new to this forum and I am sorry that my first post is a cry for help.
I have been the happy and relatively trouble-free, owner of my (R) reg 24v Ultima Scorpio for four years now. However, having recently passed the 90,000 mile mark I have been experiencing Autobox problems.
The first sign of trouble was an occasional reluctance to engage reverse gear. Revs would rise and eventually it would thump into gear with a bit of a jolt, sometimes selecting reverse would cause the engine to cut out completely.
This has since turned into a constant problem with both reverse and forward gears. Revs rise and then it eventually thumps into gear. This only occurs from cold start however, once up to running temparature the gearbox is as smooth as it ever has been.
From advice that I found on this website I checked the level and quality of the ATF. The level was just on the max and the oil when wiped on a white cloth appeared to be a pinky brown colour with no bits.
A mechanic friend, advised an oil and filter change. I purchased a filter kit from Ford Parts UK, including screen filter, gasket and o rings. My local Ford dealer advised me to use 3.5 litres of DP-M5 oil (it also had the numbers: 9U7J M2C919 AA on the bottles).
One oil and filter change later and... the same cold starting problems. A reluctance to select a gear, revving and thumping as before. Once up to temparature though, there is a distinct improvement, gear selection seems to be a lot more positive and kick down seems quicker to respond.
My mechanic said that the old filter was definately in need of replacement and that the old oil didnt look too bad, just well used.
I checked the new oil quality shortly after the change and it looked to be the same pinky brown colour as before. I have since been advised that as the torque converter holds a large amount of oil as well, the new oil will have just mixed in with the old again. I have also been advised to possibly change the oil a second time?
I was hoping that somebody could please give me some advice. Is my gearbox on its way out? or is it possible to save it. All help would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks,
Pete.
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tonyboy
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black2.924Vcoss ( No More )
  
 
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Re: Autobox Problem
« Reply #1 on: Mar 30th, 2010, 4:05pm » |
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Hello and welcome to the site. With torque converter and oil cooler it takes 10.3 Litres of oil, Check the oil level as described on the site ..... http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/autogearbox.htm ... also it might be a good idea to clean the MAF...........
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I think i'm going, erm what do you call it..... Senial.... 
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: Autobox Problem
« Reply #2 on: Mar 30th, 2010, 4:06pm » |
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Welcome pedro_pete -- are you Spanish?
Check your MAF first. Many topics on that here AND on the website. Read all about it!
That would be my first guess --
HTH
Ray
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Dave2302
Senior Member
2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
Posts: 1119
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Re: Autobox Problem
« Reply #3 on: Mar 31st, 2010, 1:19pm » |
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What you are describing definitely sounds like low oil level, make sure you check the level with ENGINE RUNNING IN PARK and on LEVEL ground.
If not low level, don't bother wasting your money on oil changes it means the tranny is shot, but normally this would happen more when hot, from cold def sounds like low oil.
HTH Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Cosray
Full Member
8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: Autobox Problem
« Reply #4 on: Mar 31st, 2010, 10:46pm » |
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Pedro_pete -- I remember from my first Cossie it showed comparable behaviour such that you did not trust yourself in city-traffic because of the engine stalling and the gearbox bumping and jumping and kicking because of the revving engine...
Passengers would be rocked and shocked... turned out to be a partly worn engine-to-autobox loom. The one running from the front over the injectors to the autobox.
Once replaced the old one looked like Emmentaler cheese - holes, brittle sections, isolation missing and shorting... everything went back to normal after.
I understand these looms are still availbale though not cheap. I would advise you to inspect the wirequality of that loom.
If you search for [loom] on the website you will find plenty relevant hits where to look.
HTH,
Ray
PS Do follow this thread as well... sounds similar...
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb//YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action =display;num=1269469823
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Dave2302
Senior Member
2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
Posts: 1119
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Re: Autobox Problem
« Reply #5 on: Apr 1st, 2010, 11:47am » |
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Yep, could well be,
The best way to diagnose this is a code read and if you have a "shopping list" of solenoids and sensors gearbox related then it's most likely a loom.
As said they are still available as long as you ask for "Fuel Cut Off Loom" which is what you wan't. Don't ask for Engine loom or they'll tell you it's NLA.
Should cost about £300.
HTH Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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pedro_pete
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Re: Autobox Problem
« Reply #6 on: Apr 4th, 2010, 11:10pm » |
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Hello again, apoligies for the late reply.
Thank you all for your time and excellent advice, it has been greatly appreciated.
Following the advice of Dave, I checked the oil level again with engine running and in park. The level wasn't even on the Min mark.
After closer inspection by another mechanic, it turns out that the oil was leaking out. The leak has been fixed and the oil topped up, now registering between Min and Max markings. Left it over night to settle and tried it this morning, and, fingers crossed, the problem seems to have been solved! 100% improved from cold starting and changing better than I have ever known it to. No more revving, no more thumping into gear! Hurrah!
I'm genuinely over the moon, I love my Scorpio and was worried that it might have been curtains for it.
Once again thank you all very much for your help,
Pete.
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a900one
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A scorpio is for life not just for christmas
Posts: 980
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Re: Autobox Problem
« Reply #7 on: Apr 5th, 2010, 1:22pm » |
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Was it leaking on the oil cooler?.
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pedro_pete
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Re: Autobox Problem
« Reply #8 on: Apr 15th, 2010, 8:53pm » |
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Hello again,
Well, it looks like I my have spoken too soon... 
I drove the Scorpio for the first extended drive last weekend since the oil and filter change. All was going well, it seemed to be driving bettter than ever. I decided to to test the car properly down a stretch of motorway and kicked down from 90 mph (I had to know if it could still do it). It kicked down as expected roaring into life, all seemed to be well.
However, after that something didn't quite feel right, almost like something had given way. Power seemed to have been restricted and when I reached 90 mph again the traction control light started flashing and I could feel the juddering under the accelerator pedal. It was almost as though the car was in some kind of safe mode.
I pulled in to some services and noticed that my transmission oil was spewing out of the bottom of the gearbox. I fortunately had some extra oil in the boot, which enabled me to limp home before i ran out completely.
I have not had the chance to investigate the cause yet. I had a minor oil leak fixed recently but it seems to have leaked from somewhere else. I was wondering if maybe the filter wasn't fitted or sealed correctly, I read another post on this forum about how they had changed the manufactured size of the filter and something about it needing a different sized bolt? I'm not sure if I've got the right tbh. Could this have been the cause?, I was unaware of this before having the work done you see.
Once again if anyone has any advice, it would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks,
Pete
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
Posts: 2918
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Re: Autobox Problem
« Reply #9 on: Apr 15th, 2010, 9:16pm » |
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The filter is within the box so if it doesn’t seal it won’t leak externally.
If the filter doesn’t seat correctly air can be drawn in and make the changes slow etc.
If the box overheats it can dump oil I believe, but whether air getting in with the circulating oil could cause it to overheat I don’t know.
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ABS multiplug wheel sensor pins MK IV or MK 20
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tonyboy
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black2.924Vcoss ( No More )
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Re: Autobox Problem
« Reply #10 on: Apr 15th, 2010, 9:43pm » |
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Hello, the finnis code for the filter is 4000411, It's just the filter is a bit thinner and you may need some washers to pack it out, unless you snap it like i did, then i used a smaller 6mm bolt. but the physical size should be the same, .........
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Mike H
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Renault Clio
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Re: Autobox Problem
« Reply #11 on: Apr 18th, 2010, 8:18pm » |
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Sounds like it's comng out under pressure. What about a hose leak?
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Mike H
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Dave2302
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2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
Posts: 1119
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Re: Autobox Problem
« Reply #12 on: Apr 18th, 2010, 9:10pm » |
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Sounds to me like it's blown the converter seal out of the front of the pump, happens a lot at speed.
The fact that it has been run with low oil probably damaged the pump bush, leading to this current faliure.
Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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tonyboy
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Re: Autobox Problem
« Reply #13 on: Apr 18th, 2010, 9:18pm » |
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Does that mean a new seal or a new pump...........
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Jonnycab
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Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
Posts: 3900
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Re: Autobox Problem
« Reply #14 on: Apr 20th, 2010, 8:37am » |
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Is the sump torqued up correctly ?.....I had an autobox leak a couple of months back & turned out the sump bolts were loose.
Regarding the trouble getting gear when the engine is cold....it could be the same problem as I (& a few others on here) have. As far as I know, the culprit is a sticking autobox reverse solenoid & only causes a problem when first started when cold (mainly in winter).
Mine's been doing it for about 3 years now & hasn't got any worse, & rather than an expensive strip down, I've learned to live with it. I find that when it happens, then turning off & restarting the engine 2 or 3 times seems to sort the problem 
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Tekno
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Tenho Ruohoranta
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Re: Autobox Problem
« Reply #15 on: Apr 20th, 2010, 10:49am » |
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on Mar 30th, 2010, 1:08pm, pedro_pete wrote:
The first sign of trouble was an occasional reluctance to engage reverse gear. |
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I would check gasget of reverse servo. If it's leaking, transmission can't get reverse engaged easily or it takes many seconds, because of low pressure. It's behind autobox sump bolted with 4 bolts and easy to find there. Also spring of servo would be good to replace. Or maybe whole servo.
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1998 Ford Scorpio Ultima Estate 2.3i 16V
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pedro_pete
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Re: Autobox Problem
« Reply #16 on: Jun 4th, 2010, 7:39pm » |
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Hello again, Sorry about the late reply but I've only just had the chance to get the Scorpio fixed.
Thank you once again for all of your helpful advice, however I am again calling upon your expertise.
My oil leak and gearbox trouble turned out to be caused by a faulty oil cooler. This has now been replaced and the leak is fixed and gears seem to be nice and smooth and positive whether from cold start or after running. So I'm pleased with all of that .
The trouble I have now is that when I am traveling at speed the traction control light is coming on at 90mph. It seems to be restricted/reluctant and it takes a few prods of the accelerator pedal to get it to go above 90mph.
I have tried cleaning the MAF sensor which is advised on this site. It hasn't solved this problem but has made a huge difference to the overall running of my engine, tick over used to quite lumpy but is now smooth and even. I will be doing this regularly from now on.
Just wondering if anyone else has experienced the traction control light and restriction at 90mph scenerio before. A friend at work said it might due to a rotation problem with one of the wheels or tyres? I have recently replaced one of my front tyres with a new one.
Could it be that there is a brand new tyre on one side and a worn tyre on the other side?
Could it be that simple or is it just wishful thinking?
Once again any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Many Thanks,
Pete
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
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Re: Autobox Problem
« Reply #17 on: Jun 5th, 2010, 7:30pm » |
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Hi Pedro yes, I experienced similar behaviour once with one tyre out of 4 being worn, causing a significant unbalance from the sensors' input to the ABS processor at a certain speed, as in absolute sense the 4 inputsignals will diverge over a 'safe' threshold.
It predictably and correctly responded with a 'warning' signal to indicate that something in the wheeldata is amiss or not consistent.
Of course you could have the ABS-datalog read out by a well-equipped garage to make sure. Unbalance should show up immediately.
HTH,
Ray
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pedro_pete
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Re: Autobox Problem
« Reply #18 on: Jun 5th, 2010, 8:20pm » |
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Hello Ray,
Thank you for your reply, I'm glad to hear that it isn't anything too serious . I've got a 400 mile trip to Cornwall coming soon, so I'm hoping to get the Cossie in top form for the trip. It's by far the BEST car I have ever owned for eating up the miles in total comfort.
I will get the wheels and tyres checked ASAP.
Thanks again,
Pete
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Mike H
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Renault Clio
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Re: Autobox Problem
« Reply #19 on: Jun 7th, 2010, 3:18pm » |
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In other words, because say the two rear tyres are slightly different diameter, due to uneven wear, this produces mis-matching speed measurements from each wheel?
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Mike H
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