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Topic: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v (Read 2392 times) |
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
 
Posts: 569
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Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
« Reply #20 on: Aug 26th, 2010, 8:08am » |
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Highlander, out of curiosity - since gameboy's problem seems multi-facetted - I understand that the later Cossie variants have the PATS function integrated in the EEC-V, hence a different loom and pinout.
That would imply NOT having a PATS module on a 1997.
If it IS a separate unit, where would it sit?
If built in into the EEC-V as a PATS functionality, how come a garage would find a burnt-out module?
Are they perhaps referring to the start inhibitor relay?
That would correlate with the submersed fusbox, would it not?
Curious,
Ray
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gozz
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Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
« Reply #21 on: Aug 26th, 2010, 9:25am » |
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To my mind any garage would have the devil of a job finding the PATS module in it's caged hidey hole,and twice the job removing it.Something definitely does not ring true here !
GOZZ.
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
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Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
« Reply #22 on: Aug 26th, 2010, 9:41am » |
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Gozz - when the PATS module was a separate "box" - WHERE would it sit?
Do they sit in this funny upside-down cubbyhole over the glovecompartment, under the Airbag?
I know that space contains the Servotronic + two other relays/modules. What are they, do you know?
In my experience PATS is just a software function toghether with the key RFID / sensor ring module and a few pinouts on the EEC-V energising the Start Inhibitor Relay, correct?
Ray
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Mike H
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Renault Clio
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Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
« Reply #23 on: Aug 26th, 2010, 12:26pm » |
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Was written somewhere else very recently, is it not indeed up behind the glove box area somewhere close by the PCM module? Like wot Gozz said 
So "burnt out" suggests the water problem causing Voltages to get into it where they shouldn't (?)
 
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Mike H
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Highlander
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13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
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Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
« Reply #24 on: Aug 26th, 2010, 1:36pm » |
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Up behind the glovebox is exactly where the water goes if it reaches the right level in the passenger side fusebox, it will use the same hole as the main loom from the bulkhead to the fusebox..
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:I give up !  Too much for an old boy!  |
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gozz
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Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
« Reply #25 on: Aug 26th, 2010, 7:47pm » |
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Ray.
On the right hand drive cars at least,the PATS module is to the right of the central control module,it is a black box encased in a strong steel frame which is bolted to the body.Regarding the fitment to EEC V PCMs,I have an early 24v limousine which would have EEC V and has the separate PATS module.Whether or not later models changed,I could not say.There are between two and four relays in the roof of the glovebox according to equipment levels,28,31,37 and 38,the handbook details them,although I detect discrepancies in their descriptions.
GOZZ.
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
« Reply #26 on: Aug 26th, 2010, 8:07pm » |
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Thanks Gozz. Another step to enlightenment.
What are these numbers? I do not recognise them. I have the TIS0009 CD-ROM which only shows two open-ended wires going to and fro the PATS "unit".
My EEC-V is/was bolted/riveted in a steel frame; the CCM slides and is on top. No other modules visible there.
I remember three or so relays in the cubbyhole over the glovebox. They are sort of clipped to the ceiling. Are they significant? What are they?
Could you send me more details? Just in case I have a PATS breakdown - touch wood sofar everything broke down BUT PATS  - I would like to be in the know.
Anything available?
What "handbook"? Is there one?
Thanks,
Ray
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gozz
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Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
« Reply #27 on: Aug 26th, 2010, 8:41pm » |
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Ray.
Do you mean the relay numbers ? that is the numbering in the Scorpio hand book which is printed on this site somewhere,if Simmo pops up he will soon put you on to it.
The PATS unit is where I said,to the right of the CCM, 95FG-19A366-AE is it's part number,it has a 26 pin multiplug.
The relays above the glovebox are listed as:- heater blower motor,yellow
headlamp washer,blue
automatic speed control,green
air compressor,yellow.
But as I said this may not be true to form,others on here have expressed doubts as to the correctness of the descriptions.
GOZZ.
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
« Reply #28 on: Aug 26th, 2010, 9:41pm » |
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Gozz, thank you. That is most helpful information. It will allow me to put the pieces of the puzzle together on the basis of my own documentation.
The PATS location versus the units in the cubbyhole above was not clear to me; now it is. Thx again.
Ciao,
Ray
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Simmo
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I'm an OAP !
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Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
« Reply #29 on: Aug 27th, 2010, 6:54am » |
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This might help
The Handbook details are here 
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Now I'm an OAP
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
« Reply #30 on: Aug 27th, 2010, 8:09am » |
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Thanks Simmo for your info.
So the confusion arises when the term CCM and PATS module are used alternatively. The CCM controls many AntiTheft functions.
I understood there once used to be a separate box/module called the PATS module.
In gameboy's case the garage may have detected a bad CCM then; that is plausible, don't you think? It would explain the many other seemingly unrelated complaints.
Gameboy - any news from your garage yet?
Curious,
Ray
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Mike H
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Renault Clio
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Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
« Reply #31 on: Aug 29th, 2010, 10:07pm » |
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The confusion arises I think because early models have a separate PATS module. Like mine most likely. However for later rmodels the PATS function is incorporated into the PCM computer "software". So no extra PATS module. Is that right?
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Mike H
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
« Reply #32 on: Aug 29th, 2010, 10:12pm » |
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Mike H - exactly, that has been my point for some time.
Either there is or was a separate module called PATS - where was it located?
Later on - so after 1995 and before 1998 - I understand the PATS *function* was incorporated in the EEC-V - hence a different loom and pin-out.
From what year or version onwards was this revision implemented?
That would certainly shed a brighter light on PATS behaviour and our gameboy's problem here as well as his garage's conclusions and invoices.
Ray
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
« Reply #33 on: Aug 29th, 2010, 10:21pm » |
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That's what it says HERE
"The PATS system was first a separate module mounted beneath the dashboard, and later became part of the engine management system, and is connected to a transceiver mounted around the ignition barrel."
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ABS multiplug wheel sensor pins MK IV or MK 20
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
« Reply #34 on: Aug 30th, 2010, 10:10am » |
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Right Tompion... thanks.
That would imply that gameboy's car - R reg 1997 - does NOT have a separate PATS module.
So please gameboy, ask your garage what exactly is it that they found that was "burnt"?
Almost certainly it is not a PATS module. The transponder 'round the ingnition key perhaps? CCM? What?
GAmeboy's car's symptoms are erratic: "...suddenly have electrical problem key in and dash lights up as normal but no start, can jump start straight onto starter motor and engine will start and run normaly, take key out and dash is still lit up, have changed driver side fuse box made no diference, ..."
In had those symptoms in my Cossie, a year before the engine compartment loom finally decided to melt because of age, heat and moisture from coolant.
Curious,
Ray
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