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Topic: 24V engine stalling (Read 5287 times) |
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Tenfut
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White Cosworth Saloon
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24V engine stalling
« on: Sep 9th, 2010, 9:29pm » |
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My 24v runs fine at speed and idles OK so long as the gear selector is in "D" or "R" when stopped, but as soon as I move the selector to "P" or "N" the engine stalls immediately, it doesnt splutter or gradually cut out it is just like turning off the engine with the key.
Anyone any ideas?
Cheers
Tenfut
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scorpio_man
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Ford Kuga awd
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Re: 24V engine stalling
« Reply #1 on: Sep 10th, 2010, 5:35am » |
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hi tony
i'd give the idle bypass valve a wee clean out with carb cleaner.
remember to use a little oil on the 'ram' pipe once it's clean.
sounds like it's sticking a little.
hth
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Tenfut
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Re: 24V engine stalling
« Reply #2 on: Sep 10th, 2010, 6:47am » |
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Thanks Andrew
I will give it a clean this weekend
Tony
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Matt
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Manual'd and a 4.0 in the making
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Re: 24V engine stalling
« Reply #3 on: Sep 12th, 2010, 3:14pm » |
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whats your gearbox like when its driving? whats the oil like? sounds like the box could be the problem to me, could be the selector shafts is lose or could be the solenoids in the box failing, do you get much 'whine' off the torque converter?
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FDS2000 Scans - Birmingham
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Tenfut
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Re: 24V engine stalling
« Reply #4 on: Sep 12th, 2010, 5:13pm » |
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Matt
The gearbox oil and filter were changed 6000 miles ago (@93000) The oil is clean and no bits. The oil that came out didnt seem that bad. As for whine it does a bit when starting off but I think it always has done, difficult to say really. It picks up drive within about 2 seconds and goes through the gears OK. As it is the only one I have driven I have nothing to compare it with.
For one reason or another I have not been able to spend any time on the car this weekend so dont know if Andrews suggestion of cleaning the idle control valve would sort the problem.
As you can imagine I hope he is right!!!
Tony
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: 24V engine stalling
« Reply #5 on: Sep 15th, 2010, 1:01am » |
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Strange this as obviously you have to start it in N or P.
When it stops can you start it immediately,
does it matter if the engine is hot or cold,
if you start it, move it very briefly into gear then back to N or P does it stop?
I did try removing the start inhibitor whist in gear with the engine running (parked in a suitable way to avoid being run down  ). It made no difference, but just to prove a faulty one can’t cause your problem you could try doing the same & see if yours still stalls.
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: 24V engine stalling
« Reply #6 on: Sep 15th, 2010, 8:30am » |
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Hi all - here's my two cents' worth.
The transmission range sensor is both a resistor bridge, telling the EEC-V in which position the lever is, economizing on wiring, as well as a slider switch.
This switch, by grounding, energises the Start Inhibitor Relay in position P & N only, which in turn allows the startermotor to run or not. Now, as soon as the engine runs, that wire has no function anymore.
The grounding wire runs to the PATS section of the EEC-V or the PATS module, depending on year of build.
In all other positions it should be open, leaving the Start Inhibitor Relay OFF and the PATS line with no signal at all, "floating".
(Pulling the Start Inhibitor Relay after starting has no effect on the engine running since it will only block the starterengine before starting)
Because of a wiring or switching fault it looks like it is telling PATS to immobilize the engine IN position P & N once it is running, so therefore the immediate cut-out, as the EEC-V stops firing the Injectors.
As it is a mechanical, moving device, it is suspect, since apparently only its movement and change of position provokes the fault.
It probably induces a logical conflict in PATS function as the engine is running already and bridge and switch do not match up.
You would need this diagram "Starting Systems, chapter 26-01-*" for details:
http://www.bitly.nl/00efe9
Even better if you would have a TIS CD-ROM around year 2000, as it connects the various interlinking chapters just by clicking.
What year is your Cossie?
HTH
Ray
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Tenfut
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Re: 24V engine stalling
« Reply #7 on: Sep 15th, 2010, 9:05am » |
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Thanks to all for your comments
Auto electrics definitely not my field!!!!
I will start with Andrews suggestion and see where that takes me
Tompion - Where is the start inhibitor?
Tony
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Cosray
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Re: 24V engine stalling
« Reply #8 on: Sep 15th, 2010, 9:25am » |
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Tony,
It is in your junction box but, as stated, it has no function AFTER the engine is running.
BEFORE starting it will either prevent or allow the starterengine to engage.
Apparently your engine starts well but suffers from a cut-out in pos P & N AFTER starting.
Most likely the fault is in the mechanical area i.e. the switch part of the Transmission lever, confusing your PATS.
Waht year car please?
HTH
Ray
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: 24V engine stalling
« Reply #9 on: Sep 15th, 2010, 9:41am » |
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My point was that removing the start inhibitor relay after starting would rule it out.
I'd be very surprised if it was the culprit, but for the sake of a few minutes work it's worth trying.
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
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Re: 24V engine stalling
« Reply #10 on: Sep 15th, 2010, 9:50am » |
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Yes of course Tompion.
However and moreover I would suggest Tony here to put the car under a roof or awning or darkened area and inspect the signals from the LED on his dash.
What signals does it produce:
- before starting (KEY OUT, IGN OFF)
before starting (KEY IN, IGN ON)
when starting
when engine running
when the failure occurs.
We could then hope to deduct what symptoms are present under the bonnet.
Here's how it works:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pats.htm
Tony, over to you
Ray
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Highlander
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13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
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Re: 24V engine stalling
« Reply #11 on: Sep 15th, 2010, 10:03am » |
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on Sep 15th, 2010, 9:05am, Tenfut wrote:
Tompion - Where is the start inhibitor? |
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http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/central_fusebox.gif
Start inhibitor relay = R11 drivers side fusebox at the very back Tony, small brown one
its helpful to stop the wipers in the up position to gain access and I find I sometimes have to remove some of the surrounding relays to get a grip of it
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:I give up !  Too much for an old boy!  |
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
Posts: 2918
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Re: 24V engine stalling
« Reply #12 on: Sep 15th, 2010, 10:10am » |
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Brown? mine was yellow - normal size
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Highlander
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Re: 24V engine stalling
« Reply #13 on: Sep 15th, 2010, 10:15am » |
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on Sep 15th, 2010, 10:10am, Tompion wrote:| Brown? mine was yellow - normal size |
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Now thats interesting, never seen that before, all the ones I've seen have been half size relays with brown covers, was yours in the same place? R11?
***Just had a quick look round some cars/fuseboxes, I have different setups right enough, some have a small white R10 horn relay with small brown inhibitor relay (2 x facelift 24v's) , some have a brown horn relay with large yellow inhibitor relay like Tompions..
I wonder if they should be the same and have suffered from people swapping relays or if there were different relay set ups... I give up with Scorpios!! 
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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Tompion
Administrator
1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
Posts: 2918
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Re: 24V engine stalling
« Reply #14 on: Sep 15th, 2010, 10:47am » |
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Thought I must be going daft so went out and checked/pulled a couple of relays. Definitely yellow on mine with 6HE in the corner. The horn R10 alongside is a small brown one.
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Tenfut
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Re: 24V engine stalling
« Reply #15 on: Sep 15th, 2010, 11:20am » |
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Built December 1996
Tony
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Tenfut
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Re: 24V engine stalling
« Reply #16 on: Sep 16th, 2010, 8:41am » |
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Tried an experiment this morning
Started engine from cold, moved selector to "D" then back to "P" and then through every position, no problems at all.
Drove 5 miles, engine now up to temperature, stopped, put car in "N" stalled immediately.
Re-started engine in "N" and it ran perfectly, put it in "D" then back to "N" and it stalled.
Anyone any ideas
Tony
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
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Re: 24V engine stalling
« Reply #17 on: Sep 16th, 2010, 9:11am » |
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... seems to point to a "slippery" or erratic sliderswitch under the lever, upsetting PATS's conditions, cutting-out the Fuel Injectors.
Once the vehicle has moved, providing VSS data to the EEC-V, an eveidently wrong PATS "ON" condition is conflicting.
Tony, have you observed the various LED signals before, during after? What do they say? They might provide a clue to the stalling.
HTH
Ray
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Highlander
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Re: 24V engine stalling
« Reply #18 on: Sep 16th, 2010, 9:30am » |
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Tony have you had a wee look for air leaks?
from the MAF back, check there are no splits/gaps in the hose, jubilee clips loose.
I'd also look under the engine cover, the O rings at either end of the inlet manifolds are prone to leaks as well as the small rubber hoses and T piece.
You might need to have someone in it and keep it in D so it still idles if it keeps stalling though.
I usually spray some WD40 over the O rings/pipes, if its leaking you should hear a change in the engine note as it draws it in.
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/vacuumpipesg.htm
Can you get an OBD scan?
p.s. as an outside shot, does it still stall if the aircon is turned off??
O-Rings at rear right as you look front the front
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
Posts: 2918
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Re: 24V engine stalling
« Reply #19 on: Sep 16th, 2010, 11:56am » |
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I would imagine increasing the revs as you change to N would allow the engine to overcome a problem with air leaks. If it’s reluctant to do it because of the drag when stationary or you don’t want to try it on the move (as brakes and steering become useless with a dead engine) then chock the front wheels & jack one of the back wheels off the ground so it can spin.
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