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Topic: Not Firing (Read 3752 times) |
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lesterlad aka Rodders
Full Member
2.3 Ghia x Estate (Manual)
 
Posts: 877
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Went to start the car this afternoon, engine turns over and it initially fires for about 1 second then nothing but engine still turning over on the key.
I have done this a number of times over a period of 6 hrs but still the same outcome.
Everything was perfectly ok on Monday night with no symptoms or misfire when I parked it up, It stood all day Tues and Wed Morning and I'm hoping it's just damp and not the dreaded shut off loom.
Does the loom usually pack up without warning or is there any symptoms beforehand ?
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There's are methods to my madness!!! I'm not sure what the methods are but there's definitely madness in them
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Malcolm73
Full Member
Posts: 137
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Re: Not Firing
« Reply #1 on: Dec 29th, 2010, 7:48pm » |
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My car is a 24v Ultima, always garaged when not in use and has not been used during the cold spell. We have used my wife’s car with front wheel drive and better traction.
This afternoon my car with a new Varta battery would not start.
Normally it always starts instantly. After long turn of the key one cylinder just about fired. After about four key turns it ran but was misfiring, however it came to life and then ran normally.
We have had a dramatic upturn in temperature and a lot of condensation, I am sure this is the cause of your car not starting.
You cold try a hot hair dryer on the spark plug leads / ignition components..
Regards, Malcolm
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gozz
Senior Member
Been around awhile
Posts: 3475
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Re: Not Firing
« Reply #2 on: Dec 29th, 2010, 8:09pm » |
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Rodders.
It could well be the engine loom a bit raggy ably assisted by the damp spell,they are not complex,you can easily whip some insulation off and have a look.Before you take the top cover off to investigate baked wiring,look at the bits that are underneath the intake pipe,best to whip it off or turn it round.These bits do disintegrate and short out,particularly the TPS wires.
GOZZ.
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lesterlad aka Rodders
Full Member
2.3 Ghia x Estate (Manual)
Posts: 877
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Re: Not Firing
« Reply #3 on: Dec 31st, 2010, 3:52pm » |
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Have done what you suggested Gozz, wires under the intake pipe look ok, as do others, looks as if they have been repaired sometime earlier before I had it.
The only wire that was suspect was the one that goes between the rocker cover and the bulkhead (not the coil wires) and connects at the top right of the rocker cover.
I have stripped off all the old insulation on that and replaced with new but still no go. (just runs for a second or two then stops)
Just a point, If one coil has packed up would that prevent firing up or would it run just on two cylinders ?
Plus how do you test a coil ? 
Going to remove top cover and have a look under there when I have shook the remnants of this flu off.
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There's are methods to my madness!!! I'm not sure what the methods are but there's definitely madness in them
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Cosray
Full Member
8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: Not Firing
« Reply #4 on: Dec 31st, 2010, 4:13pm » |
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Rodders, 2.3 is that a 6 cyl.? 4?
Does it have a triple-coilpack (wasted spark) or individual coils? Do not know this engine.
Anyway any primary coil should measure about 1-5 Ohms between the respective 12V-live and common ground; the secundary should measure about 10-15.000 Ohms between the two plugssockets; on the individual coiltype all same but the high value must be measured between plugsocket and either of the 12V/ground contacts.
Check for overheated body and cracks. My 24v fires up and idles runs reasonably well on 4 but absolutely lacks power.
You might also check the EDIS and its connector. Sits right behind the headlight near the coil; flat black package with a twelve pin connector. Needs cleaning.
Also in this weathre your CPS is suspect; sits under the engine and should be protected from snow and ice by the undercover, however it is known to fail after a carwash with underwash.
If thats's all OK your engine compartment loom is suspect and yes, it will fail w/o warning as it's probably baked and isolation brittle, especially near any hotspots 
What type/year exactly Scorpio?
HTH
Ray
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lesterlad aka Rodders
Full Member
2.3 Ghia x Estate (Manual)
Posts: 877
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Re: Not Firing
« Reply #5 on: Dec 31st, 2010, 4:33pm » |
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Ray, Its a 1996 2.3 four cylinder, 2 coils which sit under a cover along the centre of the rocker cover, each one serving 2 spark plugs/cylinders
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There's are methods to my madness!!! I'm not sure what the methods are but there's definitely madness in them
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Simmo
Administrator
I'm an OAP !
Posts: 5508
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Re: Not Firing
« Reply #6 on: Dec 31st, 2010, 5:33pm » |
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Rod, This article may help and it shows how a coil can be damaged. Happy New Year, and may lots of your biscuits come from Gozz !!.  Mike.
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Cosray
Full Member
8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: Not Firing
« Reply #7 on: Dec 31st, 2010, 6:46pm » |
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Rodders, Simmo has a very plausible article there it seems. Worth following up!
Ray
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Tompion
Administrator
1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
Posts: 2918
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Re: Not Firing
« Reply #8 on: Dec 31st, 2010, 11:52pm » |
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A year or so ago my 2.3 wouldn’t start, I put my foot to the floor and cranked it quite some time – finally it fired on 2 & eventually on 4. It’s not happened before or since – I think I know what caused it but no point going into that at the moment. I assume the 2.3 doesn’t have the Wide Open Throttle inhibitor – if it does it obviously doesn’t work on mine  .
Does the PATS light flash (you need to shield it with your hand in daylight – can be difficult to see). You can get a situation where it fires with the petrol from the initial ignition on but the fuel pump doesn’t kick in as it should.
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ABS multiplug wheel sensor pins MK IV or MK 20
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lesterlad aka Rodders
Full Member
2.3 Ghia x Estate (Manual)
Posts: 877
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Re: Not Firing
« Reply #9 on: Jan 1st, 2011, 2:08pm » |
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Tompion, I have checked the PATS light, It goes out and it is not flashing when IGN is turned on.
Had a hand held scanner ( OB ll [U380] ) plugged in but no codes are showing up.
Going to have to wait now for it to stop raining before I start messing around under the bonnet checking the coils and fuses/relays, last thing I need now is water dripping into the fuse boxes. 
On an older type car with a carb I would have put it down to fuel starvation by what its doing.
If I can't bring it back to life by next week I'll have to resort to a mobile sparky I think., which is a cost I really could have done without this time of year 
Ah well, time to get the bus pass out I suppose.
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There's are methods to my madness!!! I'm not sure what the methods are but there's definitely madness in them
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Simmo
Administrator
I'm an OAP !
Posts: 5508
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Re: Not Firing
« Reply #10 on: Jan 1st, 2011, 4:53pm » |
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Rod, have you looked at This page re the PATS ?
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TiberiuS
Senior Member
Ex. 1996 2.3 Ultima - RIP P789 KHJ
Posts: 2257
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Re: Not Firing
« Reply #11 on: Jan 1st, 2011, 5:01pm » |
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Rodders - on mine at least, the section of wiring which went to the coils themselves was at fault, anything below the injector rail seemed OK still (heat rises etc)
Coils - unless the primary winding has gone open circuit, they're gonna be difficult to test because they can fail to work at certain loads but still appear intact electrically - I'd be happy to be corrected on this but I haven't found anyone yet who has a good method of testing them. Coils can be a problem on any car, it's not just a Scorpio issue. It's always handy to have a couple of spares, there's been links posted with the coils selling for good prices on eBay - might be worth picking up one or even a pair.
Just my opinion, and more a nugget of general advice which might not help your problem but any car which is 10+ years old is going to develop gremlins, when doing any work on both of ours I always clean any visible connectors with De-Oxit, plug and unplug them a few times to clean the contacts and then protect them with dielectric grease before assembling them again. The same when doing the yearly service, always go around and clean and reseat the connectors to the sensors etc on the engine.
That's a lesson I've learned from years of repairing audio gear, dirty switches and connectors cause some really oddball faults, cars are sensitive in this way too. A lot of modern cars rely on 5v signal voltages to most sensors, those voltages are at very low currents and will easily get corrupted with dirty connectors etc.
Good luck.
Bruce
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Bruce - '07 Jaguar XKR coupe, '95 Jaguar XJ Sport 4.0, '82 Ford Capri 2.0 Ghia, '15 Honda Civic (sloooooww..)
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Highlander
Moderator
Expert
13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
Posts: 8244
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Re: Not Firing
« Reply #12 on: Jan 18th, 2011, 11:40am » |
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Fuel pump relay??
Fuel cut off switch?
Can you hear the pump in the tank prime the fuel system when you turn the ignition on Rod?
It should start pumping then stop when the pressure has built up
Are you getting a spark?
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:I give up !  Too much for an old boy! |
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lesterlad aka Rodders
Full Member
2.3 Ghia x Estate (Manual)
Posts: 877
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Re: Not Firing
« Reply #13 on: Jan 18th, 2011, 12:50pm » |
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1) Fuel pump relay working.
2) Fuel cut off switch working (gave it a good thump and button popped up then no firing first turn of key, press button down then fires first turn of key for 2 secs and cuts out) Second and subsequent turns of key = no firing at all, just cranks over, leave for a few hours and it fires again for a couple of secs.
3) Can hear fuel pump priming for a few sec's then stops.
4) must be getting spark or there would be no initial firing on first turn of key.
Tried to access crankshaft position sensor with no joy (that's why I haven't swapped shut off loom yet, waiting for sparkie [when I can get one] to do that along with changing air sensor plug and earth the temp sender )
Good job I've got a bus pass or I'd be stuck.........(with her indoors all day )
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There's are methods to my madness!!! I'm not sure what the methods are but there's definitely madness in them
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Highlander
Moderator
Expert
13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
Posts: 8244
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Re: Not Firing
« Reply #15 on: Jan 18th, 2011, 1:58pm » |
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on Jan 18th, 2011, 12:50pm, lesterlad aka Rodders wrote:| Good job I've got a bus pass or I'd be stuck.........(with her indoors all day ) |
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on Jan 11th, 2011, 4:24pm, lesterlad aka Rodders wrote:| I have no pets, just a wife, she does like going for walkies tho, mainly to the clothes and shoe shops. |
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I'm storing all this for future use.... 
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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lesterlad aka Rodders
Full Member
2.3 Ghia x Estate (Manual)
Posts: 877
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Re: Not Firing
« Reply #16 on: Jan 18th, 2011, 2:25pm » |
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on Jan 18th, 2011, 1:58pm, Highlander wrote:
I'm storing all this for future use....
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That's why I never take her to Harewood.
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IP Logged |
There's are methods to my madness!!! I'm not sure what the methods are but there's definitely madness in them
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lesterlad aka Rodders
Full Member
2.3 Ghia x Estate (Manual)
Posts: 877
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Re: Not Firing
« Reply #17 on: Jan 18th, 2011, 2:39pm » |
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on Jan 18th, 2011, 1:05pm, Cosray wrote:
Done the WD40 job, all the sensor connections and wiring except for the Crank sensor (can't get at it) and no difference
It Does strike a chord about the condensation issue though.
On the day it it started doing what it is, the previous day when it stood all day there was heavy condensation in the air.
The day before that everything was running / working perfectly.
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There's are methods to my madness!!! I'm not sure what the methods are but there's definitely madness in them
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Highlander
Moderator
Expert
13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
Posts: 8244
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Re: Not Firing
« Reply #18 on: Jan 18th, 2011, 2:52pm » |
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on Dec 29th, 2010, 7:16pm, lesterlad aka Rodders wrote:Went to start the car this afternoon, engine turns over and it initially fires for about 1 second then nothing but engine still turning over on the key.
I have done this a number of times over a period of 6 hrs but still the same outcome. |
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fuel problem? fuel pressure regulator? are the injectors working?
is this the one you were draining the petrol from Rod?
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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Cosray
Full Member
8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: Not Firing
« Reply #19 on: Jan 18th, 2011, 2:57pm » |
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... did you get to do the EDIS and inspect and sprayclean its connector? It sits right under the headlamp, L or R.
You may need to unbolt and just lift the expansion tank for the coolant to get to it. No need to disconnect the tubes in my 24v. Very moist spot.
Ray
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