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Topic: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v (Read 5867 times) |
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david_molloy
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Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« on: Jan 11th, 2011, 4:34pm » |
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I've also posted this on mailing list and only duplicated it just in case some forum members are not on list and as a sign of desperation..........
Hoping that someone has some suggestions for problem which has me completely baffled.
After 4 weeks I'm still no nearer solving problem and now completely out of ideas.
Essentially it either starts instantly or just cranks over as though immobilized.
Various results are
- Car starts instantly and runs OK. Stop and starts instantly another 2 or 3 times in quick succession, then refuses to start.
- When it doesn't start - leaving it for a few hours and trying again results in either no start or instant start up.
- Disconnecting battery for 2 minutes and none starting car then starts ... but if turned off and tried again wont start.
The above results are the same whether hot, warm or cold.
Before battery disconnected for first time and after enough starts / runs to generate codes the only code showing is a PO138 sensor which has been down for a couple of years. Unfortunately I only have a Gendan hand held reader.
When car is running it is 'perfect' in that it runs and shifts OK whether "trolling along" at under 2000rpm or "full bore" and all points between the two.
Kicks down OK + shifts smoothly + engine sweet at all rpm's
What I've done so far
- Cleaned MAF even though it was clean as only done 10000 miles ago.
- Fit new Bosch battery 3 weeks ago - which is slightly higher spec than Ford brand I fitted over 5 years ago. Old one was struggling with Decembers weather.
- Lifted 24v cover for inspection... no loose wires or vacuum tubes... no evidence of loom damage or water leakage etc.
- Scanned for codes as noted above.
- PATS light is same when key inserted whether car starts or not.
- When in none starting situation I've varied throttle position at various points in range but not at WOT obviously
- Checked both fuse boxes for damp ... no aux fuse box relay R24 as don't have air con. Has always had battery cover fitted in addition to a home made battery cover over drivers side.
- Tried shifter in both P and N positions
My feeling is that "something" is been reset by battery disconnect as instantly starts up after. However what this is .... is a mystery to me.
There is no difference between disconnecting battery for either 2 minutes or several hours. I have noted however that whenever battery reconnected the 1st 'ignition on' gives swinging needles even when battery has been fully charged
Weather conditions have no effect, it is the same problem regardless of temperature or moisture levels.
Any advice/suggestions would be appreciated. I'm only on line once a day as I'm still on 'steam powered' modem with a slow line.
Sorry about length of post but I've tried to give all the facts so as not to waste peoples time.
Finally... I don't know if this is relevant, but what I have discovered is that the throttle 'kick down' switch is a 'dummy'; in that it is not connected to anything. It is just a switch with no connection wires and I cannot see it been a wireless transmitter. I initially thought this was the problem due to it been subjected to WOT cold start tensioner priming for over 7 years of ownership.
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Highlander
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13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
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Re: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« Reply #1 on: Jan 11th, 2011, 5:02pm » |
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I wonder if its an intermittent crankshaft or crankshaft sensor/wiring problem.
I would have expected it to throw up a code but it may not.
If it were PATS it wouldnt crank at all so its not being immobilised as such
Fuel pump relay? could be but that would probably be intermittent and not fixed by the battery reconnect.
Are you getting voltage to the injectors when ignition is on? bear in mind if you crank the engine the voltage is dropped after 1 sec of cranking if it doesnt start
how about a battery isolator switch as a temporary measure till we work it out?
I like these 24v non start problems 
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:I give up !  Too much for an old boy!  |
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« Reply #2 on: Jan 11th, 2011, 9:54pm » |
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David, have I seen your post before?
Have I perhaps answered a similar one? It rings a bell not only because my own Cossie had this... it is most annoying as you lose confidence in the vehicle's availibility.
Please use these diagrams for reference as they carry all you need for this:
1) http://bitly.nl/c89d8c
2) http://bitly.nl/9454af
3) http://www.dainst.com/info/edis/edis.html
4) http://www.dainst.com/info/edis/EDIS_system_diagram.png
So - PATS on the 24v has 2 interruptors: the K94 relay cutting out the linevoltage to the startermotor AND using the signal from the RFID in the key to the ring-transceiver to the CCM and the EEC-V, inhibiting the injectors, which seems to be the case here IMHO.
Since you do NOT complain about not-cranking we must assume the startinhibitor relay K94 is inactive.
Now the engine's running is basically dependent only on the CPS/VRS, the EDIS and the 3-coilpack and their looms.
However, while cranking OR driving your injectors cease firing erratically. There's a few culprits for that to happen, pointing to an intermittent missing PIP signal to the EEC-V. Once that fails, the EEC-V will inhibit the INJ and it is stop and go. Suspect are:
-CPS
-EDIS
-Coilpack
-Looms carrying signals between them - highly suspect always in HOT areas next to exhaust and ABS
-All relevant connectors especially CPS and EDIS as they are in a wet area.
-The big 108-pin connector on the EEC-V carrying the EDIS's signal esp. PIP
Read this article 3) and have a look at 4) as well.
I had three similar cases in which either
- the PIP signal was disturbed by a bad loom (it runs through a separate shielded 3-wire cable, carrying PIP, IDM, SAWPW and GND packed within the loom) and once missing it will inhibit the INJ
- or the CPS/VRS signal was missing because of a wet / bad / loose CPS
- or the EDIS's connector was cracked and damp, thereby corrupting the PIP signal
- or bad coilpack contacts/loom as that will influence the IDM signal confusing the EDIS and the PIP signal etc. (The coilpack itself either works or not; no in betweens)
Please note that the INJ +12V linevoltage is always ON. Once you start fiddling and testing the wiring mentioned above the EEC-V may freeze for hours or even a day because of floating inputports. You may even have solved the problem but the EEC-V will "hang" and you start all over not knowing this freeze.
So always disconnect the battery, in this case preferably on the + side. I think I have seen batterypoles that can be switched ON/OFF.
This piece's grown longer than I anticipated. Hope it does not choke you. I may use it for other & similasr cases anyway.
See if you can live with this info as I do not know how "electric" you are...
HTH
Ray
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david_molloy
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Re: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« Reply #3 on: Jan 11th, 2011, 11:15pm » |
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Thank you for your input.....
Highlander
- Good idea to fit isolator switch ... should make car use easier as a temp measure
- I note from your post that you are an XR4x4 owner. Am I correct in asuming that the electrics on these are more basic - appreciate that will be some form of 'computer' control as I once had a mark 1 Sierra 2.0i auto which was bomb proof; even with electronic EFI.
May be tempted to give one a try as a stop gap measure if I cannot sort out problem with Scorpio in next few weeks
Ray
- Only other time I've posted this problem was a couple of hours ago on the mailing list. Must have been someone else that you recall
- Not an electrics expert - Domestic wiring no problem plus ditto for old style (1970's & 80's) car electrics. Unfortunately I've not much idea or experience with 'computer' type car elecrtics. Scorpio is 1st car I've had with a complex electical system - which has been trouble free for past 5+ years - so no need to learn such things...
- Unfortunately your links 1 & 2 don't work for me - most likely as I use a late 1990's Apple G3 laptop running a several years out of date operating system (OS9.2.2) and bowser which wont interact with anything windows. Still works and gets me by. Will try them on my sons more up to date Mac as may have more luck.
- However, I've printed your comments and will attempt to try and figure them out.... which will be a learning exercise for me.......
Also got some suggestions off mailing list to pursue.
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Mike H
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Renault Clio
Posts: 2594
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Re: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« Reply #4 on: Jan 11th, 2011, 11:31pm » |
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Is sounding more electrical isn't it? Someone had bother with that 3-core shielded before (?)
Re the kickdown switch with no wires, would that be 'cause of 'moving up' from the 12V to 24V? 'Cause the 12V auto had a "simpler" way of doing it. I use the word guardedly 
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Mike H
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Matt
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Manual'd and a 4.0 in the making
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Re: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« Reply #5 on: Jan 12th, 2011, 2:44am » |
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This sounds exactly the same as Alans problem with his 24v, what was mentioned on his post but not here was a suspect temp sender.
I had my fds on alan's car. It wouldnt talk to thr pats unit, but all other systems seemed to be fully operational
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FDS2000 Scans - Birmingham
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Snoopy
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Re: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« Reply #6 on: Jan 12th, 2011, 8:04am » |
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There was a member on here who was I think near manchester who had similar problems tried all sorts before it was fixed will see if I have time to find the posts, and the solution he found .
But it was a long time ago!
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
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Re: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« Reply #7 on: Jan 12th, 2011, 9:13am » |
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Finally... I don't know if this is relevant, but what I have discovered is that the throttle 'kick down' switch is a 'dummy'; in that it is not connected to anything. It is just a switch with no connection wires and I cannot see it been a wireless transmitter. I initially thought this was the problem due to it been subjected to WOT cold start tensioner priming for over 7 years of ownership.
David - there is no kick-down switch on a 24v. Kick-down is initiated solely through EEC-V software, responding to a combination of Throttle Pos Sensor angle (which is a potentiometer), MAF, VSS, speed etc. etc.
The TPS has a 3-pin connector looking somewhat like a crippled switch
HTH
Ray
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« Reply #8 on: Jan 12th, 2011, 9:20am » |
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If going for a battery isolator make sure you always have means of entry outside the car/leave a door open as the car will lock itself if one of the front doors is still locked when you reconnect the battery.
It’s normal for the needles to reset after a reconnect.
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« Reply #9 on: Jan 12th, 2011, 9:26am » |
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Guys, it was Adam N last year and me and many others discussing a similar problem and SOLVED, in his case after a few years...
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action= display;num=1110971001;start=50#50
Alas, we shared another engine compartment loom trouble.
I was lucky found a good one in Germany, had it replaced and my Cossie is as NEW since: absoltely Gremlin-free.
David's problem looks similar. You should really inspect the loom running over the chassisbeam next to your exhaust, under the ABS towards the battery.
I will attach a photolink later> see below.
Observe the brittle isolation causing wrong strands to touch and upset the electronics. Add some oil and coolant and the Gremlins have a ball...
http://www.bitly.nl/658471
It contains about 60 wires all going brittle on isolation that can/must be replaced individually by someone with a short body and long arms 
In Holland we have specialised companies who will repair the section for you at a price. Finding a replacement engine compartment loom - in good order - as I was lucky to spot is a rarity now.
HTH
Ray
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Highlander
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13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
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Re: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« Reply #10 on: Jan 12th, 2011, 9:42am » |
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on Jan 11th, 2011, 11:15pm, david_molloy wrote:| - I note from your post that you are an XR4x4 owner. Am I correct in asuming that the electrics on these are more basic - appreciate that will be some form of 'computer' control as I once had a mark 1 Sierra 2.0i auto which was bomb proof; even with electronic EFI. |
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Yep the Sierra has "Proper" electrics
I also have an 87 Suzuki SJ which has a main loom with about 8 wires in it!
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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Cosray
Full Member
8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« Reply #11 on: Jan 12th, 2011, 10:41am » |
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on Jan 11th, 2011, 11:15pm, david_molloy wrote:Thank you for your input.....
- Unfortunately your links 1 & 2 don't work for me - most likely as I use a late 1990's Apple G3 laptop running a several years out of date operating system (OS9.2.2) and bowser which wont interact with anything windows.
Also got some suggestions off mailing list to pursue. |
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Links are all operable & tested. Should work on any old browser since they are just hyperlinks UNLESS your browser does not allow re-directing. (bit.ly points to a very long URL)
What mailinglist are you referring too?
Curious
Ray
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« Reply #12 on: Jan 12th, 2011, 10:49am » |
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SNOOPY - I have noticed a recurring and growing amount of this type of erratic complaint.
This is quite natural given the fact components and looms are all well over 13 years old now (last manufacture 7/1998 )
By now we have gathered a fair amount of know-how and tests albeit scattered over various articles.
Would it be advisable to combine this data and put this on the FaultFinder page?
Under Gremlins? Erratic behaviour? Starts/dies?
Ray
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« Reply #13 on: Jan 12th, 2011, 11:33am » |
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on Jan 12th, 2011, 10:41am, Cosray wrote:
What mailinglist are you referring too?
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Ray, he means the email side of the site that you can join by clicking the mailing list tab on the home page:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« Reply #14 on: Jan 12th, 2011, 11:43am » |
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Thx Tompion ... been here 5 years and never noticed it ;((
Is it not counterproductive for the Forum? Hiding our lights?
Does it mail out also to hidden emailaddresses?
Is it to reach members who otherwise would not visit the Forum, the infamous 90-9-1 rule of Internet?
Curious,
Ray
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« Reply #15 on: Jan 12th, 2011, 12:52pm » |
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Some people only use the emails & others only the forum & some use both. I started on the email list & only came to the forums once I’d bought a Scorpio.
I suppose some people prefer the simplicity of the emails, it may be easier for them to just get a few emails at work without having to go to a web page, I suppose some may not even be able to go to a website at work.
Everyone on the list receives the emails & anyone can respond if they want & everyone receives the responses. You have to use the email address you signed up with to respond.
There’s usually just a few emails each day sometimes none. I think I have over 10,000 emails for the 7 years or so I’ve belonged to it.
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ABS multiplug wheel sensor pins MK IV or MK 20
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david_molloy
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Re: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« Reply #16 on: Jan 12th, 2011, 10:43pm » |
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Many thanks for all the responses.
Hopefully, weather permitting I can spend a day this weekend working through them.
Latest update ... which is still as strange as ever.
Incidentally, I'm not using WOT proceedure at present
No joy starting on Tuesday morning so just left it.....
Wednesday morning tried again and instant start up so went on 15 mile trip... parked up 2 hrs and instant start up again.
Ran a 'treat' on both journeys.....
Read codes again once home and only the ever present existing PO138 post cat sensor code had been generated.
Hopefully I can get it started a few more times without a battery disconnect to see if I can get any other codes generated. I'm sure that I read on site years ago that a code had to be repeated... 3x .... before it generated a DTC
My term 'instant start up' means that it fires up after 2 or sometimes 3 crank revolutions - just 'flick' the key and it's running. Indeed sometimes it appears to 'light up' after just 1 when warmed up.
Suppose I've been spoilt be such ease over the past years... as until recent 'misbehaviour' it's been the quickest starting car I've ever owned.... however it's now making up for lost time... with a vengance (((
david
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Mike H
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Renault Clio
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Re: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« Reply #17 on: Jan 14th, 2011, 1:41pm » |
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I'm with Cosray re the wiring
on Jan 12th, 2011, 11:43am, Cosray wrote:Thx Tompion ... been here 5 years and never noticed it ;((
Is it not counterproductive for the Forum? Hiding our lights?
<snip>
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Just an option, nothing "sinister"
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Mike H
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« Reply #18 on: Jan 14th, 2011, 1:51pm » |
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on Jan 14th, 2011, 1:41pm, Mike H wrote:I'm with Cosray re the wiring
Just an option, nothing "sinister"
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Sorry for the Biblical confusion - I meant to say by emailing Q & A's forum members do not benefit from the vauable information that goes round.
Ray
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Mike H
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Renault Clio
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Re: Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v
« Reply #19 on: Jan 14th, 2011, 3:54pm » |
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I think you can only read the digests, not answer any of the messages that way. Just guessing though
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Mike H
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