Author |
Topic: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 (Read 11019 times) |
|
Moppi
Newbie
I'm a YaBB newbie!
Posts: 37
|
 |
Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« on: Jan 29th, 2011, 7:17pm » |
 Quote  Modify
|
Hello, my name is Markus. Iīam from Berlin, Germany. My english is not so very good, but I try to do my best...
I have a great problem. My machine does not start. It blows into the air intake filter. I have tryed it with a new Edis4 module, and with an other Motorcontrole module (pcm?) So I have "blitzed" with an flash lamp. The ignition point is 90° to late. Like so.. Cyl.3 -O- Cyl.1.
The "O" stand for the crankshaft pulley. So normaly the first cylinder must stand at the over site. You understand my problem?? May it be the cable loom? The man who had sold the car had build in a new, but I donīt know if it be the right one. May it be the Problem? Now Iīve been the 9 th day on this car, but all is the same..
Greatings from Germany
Markus
|
|
 IP Logged |
|
|
|
Matt
Senior Member
Manual'd and a 4.0 in the making
Posts: 2816
|
|
Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« Reply #1 on: Jan 29th, 2011, 7:50pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Hi markus and welcome
Has the cylinder head been taken off at some point? its sounds like it has been timed incorrectly, are you also getting extra pressure in the exhaust?
|
|
IP Logged |
 
FDS2000 Scans - Birmingham
|
|
|
Moppi
Newbie
I'm a YaBB newbie!
Posts: 37
|
|
Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« Reply #2 on: Jan 29th, 2011, 8:21pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Hi..
I had looked, but if I have the first cylinder on Ot, then the camshaft is right to the position of the crankshaft. The left cog wheel have an colour line to the left site, and the right cog wheel has an colour line to the right site. So I thinks that it is okay. The machine doesnīt look so, that anybody had repaired somethin in this area! It sounds so, that the machine only blow into the air box. I donīt know,.. but I think, that the loom is inverted at some point!? May it be? I have changed pos. 10 and 12 at the Edis4 module. Then the machine have very bitter misfire. Then it blows into the exhaust! But it is so hard, that the starter have only a little chance to activate the machine.
Greats Markus
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Matt
Senior Member
Manual'd and a 4.0 in the making
Posts: 2816
|
|
Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« Reply #3 on: Jan 29th, 2011, 9:35pm » |
Quote Modify
|
It doesnt sound like an ignition problem. To have back pressure into the air box it can not be closing the valves at the correct point, i wonder if the wrong mark on the crank wheel has been used and timed to 10 or so degress before/after tdc.
The coil packs are wasted spark and cant really get mixed up, the coil and joining ht lead both fire together, the wiring loom plugs should also give you the postion of the coils. Can you turn the engine over by hand? You should feel a large resistance as each cylinder comes up on its compression stroke, if its fairly easy to turn the engine over by hand a full 360 your valves are not closing at the correct point
Matt 
|
|
IP Logged |
FDS2000 Scans - Birmingham
|
|
|
Moppi
Newbie
I'm a YaBB newbie!
Posts: 37
|
|
Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« Reply #4 on: Jan 29th, 2011, 10:47pm » |
Quote Modify
|
I had made an Compression Test. The first Cylinder have 11,5 Bar, the second and the third Cylinder 13 Bar, and ther fourth cylinder do it with 12Bar. So I think that the Compression is okay, or? Hmm... I donīt know with this car. It is the biggest Problem that I ever have in my life with cars.. 
The only thing that could be is that the cog for the crankshaft sensor is wrong!? Itīs the only plausible thing that I mean.. But exactly 90°!? I donīt know... I have a flash exactly at 90° to late. The only thing that is new on the loom is the loom to the ignition coil, fuel injector, and to the camshaft sensor. I thought that there is a wrong one, or the big connector is from the bottom side different. So that the signal from the Edis Modul comes later..
Greats..
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
PJDavis
Senior Member
2 x 1995 Jag X300 3.2 / 4.0 (Henley) 1957 XK140
Posts: 1474
|
|
Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« Reply #5 on: Jan 29th, 2011, 10:48pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Is It 180 Degrees out? Someone has timed no 1 as no 4?
|
|
IP Logged |
I love 'Movvy'
1995 Jaguar XJ6 X300 3.2 (Henley)
1995 Jaguar XJ6 X330 4.0 (Dopey)
1957 Jaguar XK140 USA (converted to RHD, and to have fitted Mk10 420G Engine with BW 65 Auto Trans)
|
|
|
Moppi
Newbie
I'm a YaBB newbie!
Posts: 37
|
|
Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« Reply #6 on: Jan 29th, 2011, 11:16pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Jan 29th, 2011, 10:48pm, PJDavis wrote:| Is It 180 Degrees out? Someone has timed no 1 as no 4? |
|
hmm, the flash from the 3 rd cylinder gives an light at 180° later then the first cylinder. So also 90° to late.. I dont know why.. exactly 90° later than the Ot (tdc)
From the coilack on the fourth cylinder a cable goes to the first. Thats right,.. From the second cylinder with the coilpack the cable goes to the third. Thats also right..
You mean that? My english is not so good..
Its very nice, that i became so much answers between many time!! Thank you!!
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Mike H
Senior Member
Renault Clio
Posts: 2594
|
|
Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« Reply #7 on: Jan 30th, 2011, 1:52pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Only time I had pressure blowing back through the intake was because a rocker had broken. So exhaust valve not opening. So it does sound like a valve timing error problem, e.g. exhausts opening late?
|
|
IP Logged |
Mike H
|
|
|
gozz
Senior Member
Been around awhile
Posts: 3475
|
|
Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« Reply #8 on: Jan 30th, 2011, 3:01pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Markus.
Did you buy the car in that condition,or was it OK and has gone like that ?I am sure that you know that the firing stroke is when the piston is at the top and both valve lifters are on the back of the cam,both valves being fully closed.
GOZZ.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Moppi
Newbie
I'm a YaBB newbie!
Posts: 37
|
|
Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« Reply #9 on: Jan 30th, 2011, 4:58pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Hey..
i have bought the car in this condition. The Ford dealer didnīt found the error they had only looked the pats and failure memory. And there was everything okay. There is nothing broken at the camshaft, everything is okay in this area. The Problem must be in the loom or on the crankshaft. The flash comes to late. If it would come at the right time, not 90° to late, then the vale would be on the right position. The Flash comes to late. Like so O- The line must be on the upper side, normally. - For the First cylinder. If I flash the 3rd cylinder, then is the flash at theese position -O Normally it must be on the under side. It would be okay if the flash for the first cylinder would come so:
\
O
But the flash comes so : O-
You know what I mean? The only thing that I can imagine is, that the crankshaft position cog stands fail. May it be if someone had made a mistake at theese position? It looks not so, that anybody had worked at these position, but I donīt know it. From the first to the third cylinder the flash light comes 180° that is okay. But why does all the flashes comes 90° to late??
It bring sleepless nights to me Iīm at the end in this moment, but I will not sale the car and give up..
Greats Markus
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Moppi
Newbie
I'm a YaBB newbie!
Posts: 37
|
|
Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« Reply #10 on: Jan 30th, 2011, 5:31pm » |
Quote Modify
|
.. something else. When I start the car, an the firing goes into the air intkake then I see no reaktion on the rev counter. When I connect an Motor control modul from an 98 Scorpio 2,3, then the speed indicator works! May it be the problem, that anythin is wrong at the loom?
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
ro284
Full Member
I'm a YaBB newbie!
Posts: 508
|
|
Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« Reply #11 on: Jan 30th, 2011, 6:02pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Moppy, Has the car ever driven properly since you bought it? did you drive it from the Ford suppliers? do you have a guarantee? Have you got the top off the engine? can you see the camshafts? can you see the cam timing chain? are there any gold coloured marker links on the timing chain? by the way the firing order is 1-3-4-2. pistons 2&3 are at TDC at the same time, also 1&4 at TDC same time, i have just replaced the head on my 2-3 also 98, and had many problems with camshart timing. which may be the problem. anyone known a tensioner fail and chain to slip round the Crank sprocket? Also i think the plugs on the coil leads are the same as the camshaft sensor. but the wires to the front coil have a ribbed protector lead on, just a few thoughts. Good luck Bob
|
|
IP Logged |
Bob Dorset
|
|
|
Moppi
Newbie
I'm a YaBB newbie!
Posts: 37
|
|
Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« Reply #12 on: Jan 30th, 2011, 6:37pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Hey,
no, I have bought the car with this Problem from a private person. No guarantee, because it was a nice price. I have seen the camshafts. When I turn the first cylinder to TDC, then the fourth cylinder is also on the TDC. When I look then to the camshaft, then I see a coloured marker on the left side to the left side, and on the right side to the right side. Thats what I mean.. everything there looks good, but the flash comes to late.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
ro284
Full Member
I'm a YaBB newbie!
Posts: 508
|
|
Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« Reply #13 on: Jan 30th, 2011, 7:07pm » |
Quote Modify
|
When i did my engine, there was no mark on the crankshaft pulley, so i got piston 1 and 4 to TDC then made my own mark on top of the pulley, when no 1 is at TDC the timing marks on the cam sprockets. should be to the outside of the cam sprockets, then rotate crankshaft fully clockwise to TDC on no 4, and the marks on the cam sprockets should be pointing inwards to each other and level with the heads straight edge, to confirm that the valve timing is correct for no 1, there is a pdf file on here which states first check TDC ON NO 2 This is not correct and impossible to do! I am not suggesting your engine has been timed wrongly but i mention this because you can confirm that valve timing is ok before going any further, as you have already got the top off! search for links in my previous post =valve timing 2-3 16 v == a few days ago for some pictures of the timing marks.
Bob
|
|
IP Logged |
Bob Dorset
|
|
|
Moppi
Newbie
I'm a YaBB newbie!
Posts: 37
|
|
Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« Reply #14 on: Jan 30th, 2011, 8:27pm » |
Quote Modify
|
okay,.. I know what you mean. But we have looked for that, and everything was okay. And if it wouldnīt be so, then the flash must even so come to the right time, or? I think that the flash comes 90° to late, so the cylinder will go to the under site with the alloy and then comes the flash. The crankshaft mark is also okay, if i turn the machine to tdc. But if I flash the cylinder, then the crankshaft mark stand to the right site, not to the up site. There was a mark on the crankshaft pulley, but I have also made an own one with chalk.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
ro284
Full Member
I'm a YaBB newbie!
Posts: 508
|
|
Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« Reply #15 on: Jan 30th, 2011, 8:53pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Question for anybody please, does the Camshaft sensor dictate when any particular plug fires? i havent thought about this, so just wondered what the sensor does? and if it could relate to this problem?
|
|
IP Logged |
Bob Dorset
|
|
|
PJDavis
Senior Member
2 x 1995 Jag X300 3.2 / 4.0 (Henley) 1957 XK140
Posts: 1474
|
|
Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« Reply #16 on: Jan 30th, 2011, 9:24pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Maybe NOT relevant....................but many years ago I remember re-boring and re-building a Triumph Mk1 2.5Pi. When putting the the crankshaft sprocket back on it could go on either way, but was about 5 degrees out when flipped. This meant it was about 10 degrees out in it's new position, and although the car started an ran, it was as rough as pig-nuts! Did someone put all those pulley back on in the right position?
Peter
|
|
IP Logged |
I love 'Movvy'
1995 Jaguar XJ6 X300 3.2 (Henley)
1995 Jaguar XJ6 X330 4.0 (Dopey)
1957 Jaguar XK140 USA (converted to RHD, and to have fitted Mk10 420G Engine with BW 65 Auto Trans)
|
|
|
Moppi
Newbie
I'm a YaBB newbie!
Posts: 37
|
|
Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« Reply #17 on: Jan 30th, 2011, 9:44pm » |
Quote Modify
|
i hope that I understand what it means.. You mean that someone has put on the crankshaft pulley wrong? Hmm, if I turnd cylinder 1 on tdc then my mark is right. It shows to the up side. But I donīt know if someone had made an mistake at the fly wheel! It looks not so that anyone was at the automatik, but I donīt know it! May it be that there is the failure??
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Matt
Senior Member
Manual'd and a 4.0 in the making
Posts: 2816
|
|
Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« Reply #18 on: Jan 30th, 2011, 10:00pm » |
Quote Modify
|
how many marks are on your crank pulley? could you take a photo for us?
they crank pulleys are normally key located
|
|
IP Logged |
FDS2000 Scans - Birmingham
|
|
|
PJDavis
Senior Member
2 x 1995 Jag X300 3.2 / 4.0 (Henley) 1957 XK140
Posts: 1474
|
|
Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3
« Reply #19 on: Jan 30th, 2011, 10:19pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Look at these two pictures, there is a lot to get right with all these sprockets.
|
|
IP Logged |
I love 'Movvy'
1995 Jaguar XJ6 X300 3.2 (Henley)
1995 Jaguar XJ6 X330 4.0 (Dopey)
1957 Jaguar XK140 USA (converted to RHD, and to have fitted Mk10 420G Engine with BW 65 Auto Trans)
|
|
|
|
Home
Help
Search
Members
Login
Reply
Send Topic
Print