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Daniel_Duese
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May be immobiliser
« on: Feb 8th, 2011, 8:52pm » |
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Hey guys, i am from Germany!
My car is a Ford Scorpio from the year 95´, with a 24v Cossworth Engine and an automatic gear box.
I will try to tell you the full story:
I have bought this car 2 month ago and i have payed 280 Euro for it.
It was so cheap, because of the many fails it got.
The biggest problem i have is, that the owner before had lost the key for ignition and the doorlock. So he broke the steering lock. (The doors were open as i got it).
The next thing was that the Electic fuse box was missing.
I bought a key set with keys, transponders, the electic ring at the barrel and the electric unit for the PATS (the black box near the glove department), and a fuse box.
The fuse box was no problem, i think.
I can switch the ignition on with a screw driver now, at the opposite side of the steering wheel.
If i try to start the engine it doesn´t work, but i can hear that the fuel pump is working for 2 seconds. The starter doesn´t turn.
In my opinion the problem is the immobiliser, but how can i taste it? The best would be i try to make a bypass, but i got no electic diagramm, does anyone of you have?
Or may be anyone got a discription which cable i have to put together...?
I have tried to find help in german forums, too. There is no good help to find...
If you want more informations about the situration or about my car, or may be about me just ask me.
Sorry for my bad english, i try my very best.
Regards Daniel
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: May be immobiliser
« Reply #2 on: Feb 9th, 2011, 4:53am » |
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Hi Daniel, welcome here. Whereabouts are you in Germany?
Let's take this step-by-step.
1) Fusebox - there are two in Scorpio. Which one is missing? Batteryside? Have you replaced it by now?
Each fusebox is essential - no fusebox no joy
2) Are you acquainted with electronics? Scorpio is a computer on wheels and very nervous about it.
3) The '95 Cossie has bad wiringlooms/Kabelbäume reputation. In your car they are now 16 years old. The worst is the one next to the exhaustshield, running from the EEC-V to the frontconnectors, under the ABS module. Do inspect for loose wires, brittle isolation.
I am fluent in German so if you miss a word do send me a PM.
HTH
Ray
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Daniel_Duese
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Re: May be immobiliser
« Reply #3 on: Feb 9th, 2011, 9:16am » |
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Hey thanks for your answers first! I am living near Hamburg.
Thanks for the wiring diagramms, may be it can help.
(but the diagramms of the PATS are missing)
I will have a look at the diode at the dashboard today.
1) The Fuse box was the one on the left side, i have replaced it and the pins fit. (I am not shure if left is left and right is right, because my steering wheel is on the left  )
2) I am a car-mechanic, my special is´t electric. I try to repair everything by my own.
3) I have heard about the problems with the wiring loom, i will have a look today and tell you if the is a problem.
If the immobiliser works, can the fuel pump work?? (becuase i can hear it turn)
I got a question about the name of the electric units:
PCM, CCM, DIS
(where are they placed?)
Thanks again!
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Simmo
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Re: May be immobiliser
« Reply #4 on: Feb 9th, 2011, 9:52am » |
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on Feb 9th, 2011, 9:16am, Daniel_Duese wrote:I got a question about the name of the electric units:
PCM, CCM, DIS
(where are they placed?)
Thanks again!
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This page may help
The fuseboxes are shown here.Click on the lists to enlarge.
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Now I'm an OAP
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: May be immobiliser
« Reply #5 on: Feb 9th, 2011, 9:57am » |
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Daniel,
a forum member called nobbel is near Bremen. He had similar problems last year I remember. He might offer you some local help as I realise you are new to Scorpio's.
Ray
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Daniel_Duese
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Re: May be immobiliser
« Reply #6 on: Feb 9th, 2011, 2:50pm » |
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Hey i have tryed something today:
Both fuseboxes are dry, no water!
Then i have looked at the wiring loom, there are many litte defekts (brittle isolation), but no wire is broken. I have taste it.
So i have to make some parts of the wiring loom new. I will do that if we found the problem with the PATS.
Than i looked at the lamp on the dashboard: At first it is blinking very fast....
After a short time it gives a code: Long-Long-short-short.
What does that mean?
I have tried the other electric unit, another key, another ring at the steering wheel (dont know the word for that thing). Everytime the same code of the LED on the dashboard.
Than i have taste all pins at the Electric unit of the PATS, of its voltage. If any one can tell me wihich pins i have to override i can do it...
May be it would help if i make some pictures for you?
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Highlander
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13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
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Re: May be immobiliser
« Reply #7 on: Feb 9th, 2011, 3:50pm » |
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have a look here :
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pats.htm
that code you mention is not listed on that page, after a little digging it seems that code indicates a failed ECU.
ROM error - no ECU ID stored
although it may not be properly connected or have a wiring issue somewhere.
have you had a look at the ECU?
Would it be possible for you to post a short video of the PATS light and what it does?
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:I give up !  Too much for an old boy!  |
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Daniel_Duese
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Re: May be immobiliser
« Reply #8 on: Feb 9th, 2011, 4:34pm » |
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I have look at the ECU today, it is the electic unit under the PATS unit, right?
I don´t know if it is working...
May it is a demaged...
At some Pins i had messure a voltage of 12v or 5v.
I will try to make a video and load it up on youtube.
Must i have a ECU that fits to the Key, because of the PATS? (i only bought the PATS unit, and the fitting Keys)
The wiring diagramms confused me, so many sites...
Put there are no informations about the PATS, i think.
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Highlander
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13 Scorpios, XR4x4, Suzuki SJ413 for off road :)
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Re: May be immobiliser
« Reply #9 on: Feb 9th, 2011, 4:45pm » |
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on Feb 9th, 2011, 4:34pm, Daniel_Duese wrote:| Must i have a ECU that fits to the Key, because of the PATS? |
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i've only swapped ECU's twice, both times it was on 1995 model 24v's, only the ECU was replaced and the cars started on their original key, which surprised me as I was under the impression they would need to be recoded to the new ECU
possibly its the later models with the PATS built into the ECU that may need recoded.
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on Oct 17th, 2011, 12:35pm, Simmo wrote:| I give up ! Too much for an old boy! |
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Daniel_Duese
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Re: May be immobiliser
« Reply #10 on: Feb 9th, 2011, 4:59pm » |
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Ok, than i don´t need another ECU, i hope.
It seems that there is another problem...
What is the name of the ring around the ignition barrel?
I have two different parts of that... on fit to the car and one fit to the key.
Or is it equal which i use to start?
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Stixy
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Re: May be immobiliser
« Reply #11 on: Feb 9th, 2011, 5:16pm » |
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If the led is flashing very fast it offen means a key reading error
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Daniel_Duese
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Re: May be immobiliser
« Reply #12 on: Feb 9th, 2011, 5:51pm » |
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At first it flashes fast, than i wait 30 seconds and than the code flashes (Long-Long-short-short). May be it is a key error, but what should i do now?
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Stixy
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Re: May be immobiliser
« Reply #13 on: Feb 9th, 2011, 6:51pm » |
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An uncoded key can cause the fast flashing . But double check all your fuses are clean and good
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: May be immobiliser
« Reply #14 on: Feb 9th, 2011, 9:03pm » |
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Daniel,
there may be a misunderstanding of definitions and functions here.
Once there was a unit called PATS as it performed that function. In reality it was always the CCM = also containing PATS function, sitting on top of the EEC-V/PCM under the glovebox.
The EEC-V was riveted, the CCM could be just pulled.
DIS = EDIS is the electronic ignitionmodule under your right headlamp. Just lift the expansion tank, leave hoses on, turn it on its back and you will see the EDIS.
It is fired by the CPS crankshaft Position Sensor and controls the coilpacks and the EEC-V through 3 shielded wires: PIP, IDM and SAWPW signals for driving dynamics.
Read all about it here:
http://www.dainst.com/info/edis/EDIS_system_diagram.png
and here:
http://rockledge.home.comcast.net/~rockledge/RangerPictureGallery/DIS_ED IS.htm
especially the last paragraph.
The transceiver-ring round the IGN key barrel reports tot the CCM telling it a good/bad key is inserted.
If bad key: relay K94 - the START INHIBITOR - driven by the CCM will not be activated and the startermotor will not turn the engine.
That is the IMMOBILISER on the Cossie.
If startermotorr does not turn simply crossconnect pins 87x30 of the relay and Bingo.
But: CCM in Cossie 24v will also send an INHIBIT signal to EEC-V so INJectors will not fire. This is a necessary precaution as EDIS can run the engine without the EEC-V, just by the CPS and the EDIS and the coilpack in LOS.
Make sure when you tamper with EDIS, Coilpacks and relevant wiring to ALWAYS to disconnect battery.
Since the INJectors are permanently connected to +12V this may cause the EEC-V/PCM ports to hang/freeze, obscuring your achieved solutions by c. 24 hours!
it happened to me!
Do not hesitate to mail any question in German to me through PM.
HTH
Ray
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Daniel_Duese
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Re: May be immobiliser
« Reply #15 on: Feb 10th, 2011, 6:13pm » |
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So, i took pictures today, i will post them tomorrow.
It will take time, because of my slow internet.
Thanks for explaining the units!
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: May be immobiliser
« Reply #17 on: Feb 11th, 2011, 9:03pm » |
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Hi Daniel,
I watched your .avi closely. Very good of you to make it!
It is a "standard performance" of PATS. it is as the relevant page says: After rapid flashing it will resume to 1:6 - meaning a faulty connection/bad wire/ connector broken between transceiver and CCM, hosting PATS.
Meanwhile CCM will tell EEC-V to NOT activate the INJectors, as it was designed to do.
So even if the K94 relay - START INHIBITOR allows the startermotor to crank the engine AND have the EDIS fire the coilpacks AND sparks - the electronics/software in the EEC-V will not allow petrol to leave the INJectors.
Have you always disconnected the battery while working on any EDIS/Coilpack/EEC-V circuit? If not, the EEC-V will freeze for some 24 h and show this result.
Leave everything as is (assuming it is all properly connected, not the mess as shown in your pics), come back in a day and it will run.
However I feel a bit guilty to offer you all this specific information since I fear your understanding of Scorpio's electronics needs progression, not confusion.
The amount of possible unknown faults on your car plus your contribution to those make it rather impossible to diagnose from a distance.
Do you have a good Autoelektriker around? HAve him read the relevant .pdfs and he will sort it out.
HTH
Ray
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Daniel_Duese
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Re: May be immobiliser
« Reply #18 on: Feb 12th, 2011, 10:55am » |
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I´m not the best, but i´m not bad in car-electric.
It´s not easy for me to explain you the problem in english...
The batterie is always disconnected, i only put it in the car to try starting or messure and to take the movie, of course.
In my opinion any part of the PATS doesn´t work correct, but i don´t know which i have to replace. I can´t check, if every wire is ok, because of no wiring diagramm of the transceiver, CCM (the black one you see on picture 3?) to the EEC-V (the right one at picture 3).
I had a look at the Edis-unit at the headlamp yesterday, the wires are ok.
Can you tell me how i can override the PATS? Which Pins at the EEC-V got a signal from the CCM and what kind of signal is it, just +12v or +5v?
(If it isn´t allowed to write in public, than write me a PM)
Is there any other part between transceiver and CCM, or are the wires from transceiver output the input of CCM?
At picture 8 you can see the broken isolation of the engine-loom, but i can´t belive that the problem with the PATS can caused of that... (i know, i have to repair it)
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Cosray
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8th Scorpio, 2nd Cosworth: currently '95
Posts: 569
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Re: May be immobiliser
« Reply #19 on: Feb 12th, 2011, 12:54pm » |
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Hi Daniel,
please realise that the state you bought your Cossie in is far from ideal... there may be more than one fault playing up. Apparently your vendor has happily tampered with it.
1) Does the startermotor turn? If so the "Immobiliser" is not active; this is just Relay K94 which you can bridge; see my earlier post.
2) The PATS light tells you its circuits are not in order, so not intact, any wire loose/broken somewhere. In that situation the CCM will tell the EEC-V NOT to activate the 6 INJectors (which are driven directly from +12V and grounded by the EEC-V ports; that is why you must disconnect the battery when working on EEC-V circuitry inc. EDIS.
PATS has a self-check for this to discourage criminals to break or override its circuits. Now there is not much of a circuit.
It boils down to the steeringwheel transponder + keychip, cabling, the CCM over the EEC-V and the K94 relay "the Immobiliser" for the startermotor.
BTW PATS is NOT a module; it is a security design/structure/marketingword.
3) Is the EEC-V/PCM still riveted (=Hohlnieten, 3 Stück) in its casing? Is the CCM still on top of it?
If the PCM is loose please check its 108-pin connector for bent or missing pins by unwinding the locking bolt and carefully put it on its side and clean/Kontaktspray/carefully slowwwwly reconnect.
If it is still riveted better leave it for now.
When you pull the CCM (black box) out please check its connectors/see below.
4) If I remember correctly next to the heaterhousing, near the floor, in the passenger footwell (LHD) just behind the console cover is an orange relay or box or I forget what.
I used to have a PATS situation once caused by that relay/box. Make sure it's there and wired correctly.
Since your car may have one or a dozen electronic faults all I can advise you from here is
* check all wiring for consistency, isolation and wholeness
* disconnect/Kontaktspray/reconnect all connectors
* OR get an Autoelektriker to inspect it. All schematics are here on the site.
HTH
Ray
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