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Topic: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed (Read 17109 times) |
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Pianoman
Full Member
24v Ultima Saloon & 2.0 16v Ultima Estate
 
Posts: 246
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #101 on: Aug 22nd, 2011, 7:03pm » |
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Thanks Tompion  I will check with the guy whats in the box,
Is it correct that putting an ammeter across pins 1 & 3 of fuel pump relay will be the same as using the fuel pressure guage?
Many thanks
Tony
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Tompion
Administrator
1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
Posts: 2918
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #102 on: Aug 22nd, 2011, 7:59pm » |
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If you remove the relay and take a reading of the amperage at the sockets in the fusebox with the ignition on the pump will be running continuously (pumping fuel back to the tank via the FPR) if the reading is steady then rises significantly it’s likely there’s a restriction. You should also take a reading with the flow blocked so you know what reading a total blockage produces. (4.08Amps normal pressure & 5.6Amps blocked on my 2.3).
You could take that reading when you change the filter – find something to plug the connector from the tank or crimp up the outlet of the old filter & use that.
Note if you’ve had the ignition on the system will be pressurised, attempting to start with the relay removed should release the pressure. The tank may be pressurised so releasing air via the filler cap may reduce the amount of petrol dripping whilst the filter is removed.
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Dave2302
Senior Member
2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
Posts: 1119
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #103 on: Aug 22nd, 2011, 8:57pm » |
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on Aug 22nd, 2011, 7:59pm, Tompion wrote: if the reading is steady then rises significantly it’s likely there’s a restriction.
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That's only true if the restriction is after the pump, if in fact the strainer in the tank is blocked the pump will draw less amps 
The best way and the only way I would ever bother to do fuel pressure testing is with a pressure gauge.
Right kit for the right job, proper diagnosis is not guess work, there could be all kinds of other unforseen reasons the amperage drawn by the pump may vary.
If it's not diagnosed properly it will probably cost an arm and a leg, may not get fixed, then when OP gets the hump with it and sells it, someone will come along and fix it for little or no money.
I recently bought an 03 plate one owner van for peanuts, had been in various garages, but none had fixed it, all had charged the previous owner, and most said over a grand to fix it because the main fuel pump had gone.................
4 hours I had the van, used the right kit to test things systematically and was road testing it within the 4 hours LOL....................
Bad connection plug on the fuel tank, which was stopping the lift pump running
So I got a 03 plate 2 grand van for 360 quid because of the dealers incompetence............Result
Now if everyone is so convinced, (without even having seen this car LOL), that this is a wiring fault, fine..............Stick it on a scan, watch the live data in particular RPM signal to ECU..............That will prove it conclusively, or not, as the case may be.
Now I'm not having a dig at anyone here and I know you are all only trying to help this guy out, but I fear this thread is pointing him in all sorts of different directions, and a lot of it is just guesswork.
I'll say it once again, there is no substitute for proper diagnosis.................Never assume anything
HTH Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Tompion
Administrator
1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
Posts: 2918
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #104 on: Aug 22nd, 2011, 10:29pm » |
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Fair enough, but I did suggest pumping fuel out to check the flow rate which would have checked for a blocked strainer in the tank. With a little thought you can check various scenarios. Like everything logical steps have to be taken & you have to draw conclusions from the results.
I’ve not suggested replacing stuff or spending any money.
I don't remember seeing any similar threads where the fault was the pump etc although of course that may be the problem.
“Now if everyone is so convinced, (without even having seen this car LOL)”
Surely that applies to the fuel theory just the same and to many of the answers to most of the threads.
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Dave2302
Senior Member
2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #105 on: Aug 23rd, 2011, 9:14am » |
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on Aug 22nd, 2011, 10:29pm, Tompion wrote:Fair enough, but I did suggest pumping fuel out to check the flow rate which would have checked for a blocked strainer in the tank.
“Now if everyone is so convinced, (without even having seen this car LOL)”
Surely that applies to the fuel theory just the same and to many of the answers to most of the threads.
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Fair enuf , I just didn't remember seeing a test to pump fuel from the tank in the thread, although it will have to be for at least a fewseconds longer than the engine is currently running for.
Very True, I haven't seen his car either, but the fuel theory is based on a lot of personal experience with cusomers cars recently...............
And the key clue for me is that it has got steadly worse to the point it hardly runs at all now,
That's all the symptoms of a load of crud gradually blocking a strainer / filter.
Electrical would be more likely to be fine one day, not run at all the next day, then be fine for a few days etc etc, or just run with a misfire etc.
Cheers Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Mike H
Senior Member
Renault Clio
Posts: 2594
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #106 on: Aug 23rd, 2011, 12:16pm » |
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Have to agree with him TBH, getting back to basics ~
A. is fuel getting through (pump, pipes etc.)
B. are you getting sparks (electrical / sensors)
C. are sparks happening at the correct timing (electrical / sensors)
If the answer to all of the above is "yes", motor should run. If not, summat else is wrong 
Also problee helpful to disconnect MAF to force closed loop fuelling (basic default)
At the back of my mind I still have a niggle about Throttle Position Sensor, that can cause some weird effects going by previous threads on here (?)
It's now 4 months!
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Mike H
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Dave2302
Senior Member
2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
Posts: 1119
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #107 on: Aug 23rd, 2011, 1:38pm » |
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on Aug 23rd, 2011, 12:16pm, Mike H wrote:
Hear Hear
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
Posts: 2918
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #108 on: Aug 23rd, 2011, 3:45pm » |
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on Aug 23rd, 2011, 9:14am, Dave2302 wrote:
Fair enuf , I just didn't remember seeing a test to pump fuel from the tank in the thread, although it will have to be for at least a fewseconds longer than the engine is currently running for.
Cheers Dave
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The quantity I gave for mine was
"The no pressure reading was pumping into a fuel can, it delivered 5litre’s in 2min 50 seconds."
Although in this case I suggested testing it at the return fuel line near the injectors - whilst I didn't mention the reason, the idea was to test the pressure side with the pump working normally.
A quick mental calculation of something easy to work out, say 10mpg at 60mph would give an idea of whether there’s enough flow in reserve.
Dave H
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Pianoman
Full Member
24v Ultima Saloon & 2.0 16v Ultima Estate
Posts: 246
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #109 on: Aug 25th, 2011, 1:52pm » |
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Quote:I used one from my air compressor kit similar to this:
http://www.diytools.co.uk/diy/Main/sp-53-11531-42436-draper-79529-air-ty re-inflator-with-pressure-gauge.asp Quote:
@Tompion will this do the job then? I have contacted serverel ebay ads and some shops and cant find any that connect to the schrader valve so I was thinking of buying the air compresser kit.
many thanks
Tony
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Tompion
Administrator
1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
Posts: 2918
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #110 on: Aug 27th, 2011, 2:49am » |
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There is a proper one on Ebay that says it has a Schrader adapter but it strikes me as a lot of money for a one off 110660063378
I’m certainly not recommending using an airline tyre inflator, you may have petrol spraying in all directions - especially if you pull the trigger & haven’t capped off the hose connector also that type of clip on adaptor isn’t right for the job. The trouble is you don’t know how resistant to petrol the plastic/rubber is, it might be OK or it may fail quickly. There’s a similar tyre inflator on Ebay 120627010026.
Mine held up for a while but the seal to the valve eventually melted. I only used it because I had one – I wouldn’t buy one just for this.
You could use the gauge & hose from a cheap footpump on ebay like item 190534176652 but it may just melt – just depends what plastic they used.
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Dave2302
Senior Member
2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
Posts: 1119
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #111 on: Sep 1st, 2011, 10:22am » |
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on Aug 27th, 2011, 2:49am, Tompion wrote:I’m certainly not recommending using an airline tyre inflator, you may have petrol spraying in all directions
You could use the gauge & hose from a cheap footpump on ebay like item 190534176652 but it may just melt – just depends what plastic they used.
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Hi Dave
Yes, tire inflator is not a wise idea LOL, but re the footpump parts, I don't think they'll melt in one minute, which is all he'll need to check it
It really isn't worth him spending loads on a Fuel Pressure Test kit if he'll never use it again !!
Regards Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Pianoman
Full Member
24v Ultima Saloon & 2.0 16v Ultima Estate
Posts: 246
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #112 on: Sep 4th, 2011, 6:00pm » |
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Ok latest update on this. Managed to get a cheap foot pump.
The car has not been started for about 2 weeks. The gauge on the foot pump is giving me slightly over 2 bar with the ignition on.
Disconnected the foot pump and started the engine. Engine fires straight away and hunts between 250 and 2000 RPM. After about a minute it goes between 250 RPM and 1000 RPM, it does this at a steady pace for about 4 mins then cuts out when the revs get too low. I can start it again and it does the 255 RPM to 1000 RPM thing again until it cuts out. After about 3 restarts it won’t stay on. You can get it to start another 2 times by depressing the throttle when starting. I think it’s stayed on so long because its not been turned over for 2 weeks.
I re-connected the foot pump gauge and the pressure was exactly the same, just over 2 bar so I assume the fuel is getting from the tank and through the fuel filter ok?
When the ignition is on there is a clicking sound (like Morse code) which I think is coming from the relay for the fans located in front of the coolant tank. I am not sure if this is related as this only started about 6 weeks ago not when the car first started having the problems.
While the car was running I did try bending the EDIS wires as suggested by Pedropedro but it made no difference, although I had limited access as the header tank was still in place.
I have a new fuel filter which I will fit as soon as my mate lends be his trolley jack and axel stand.
Can anyone pleased advise me what the next step I should take?
Many thanks for everyone help so far
Tony
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #113 on: Sep 4th, 2011, 11:29pm » |
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Does it maintain fuel pressure with the engine running? Ought to be about 2.5 bar at tickover (3 bar if you disconnect the vacuum hose at the fuel pressure regulator – stick your thumb over the hose or it might stall).
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Pianoman
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24v Ultima Saloon & 2.0 16v Ultima Estate
Posts: 246
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #114 on: Sep 5th, 2011, 10:23pm » |
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Hi Tompion
I am sorry I did not test with the engine running. I had 3 old footpumps to try and the first 2 did not work, petrol would spray out from the connections. The 3rd one worked but I was a bit windy of using it with the engine on. I have inspected the 3rd one and I think its not leaking at all, so I can try this with the engine running although I will have to wait a few days as the engine probably wont start now till about wed or thur.
Thanks
Tony
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #115 on: Sep 6th, 2011, 7:28am » |
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Looking back through the posts Highlander said "I'm sending him an IACV, Camshaft sensor, crankshaft sensor and EDIS 6 unit to try".
Have you swapped the crankshaft sensor and EDIS?
As has been mentioned your problem with the rev counter does suggest a problem with them or the associated wiring as according to no 3 Pulses in the table here:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/instreset.htm
the engine speed signal comes from the EDIS on the 24v.
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Dave2302
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2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #116 on: Sep 6th, 2011, 2:20pm » |
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on Sep 5th, 2011, 10:23pm, Pianoman wrote:Hi Tompion
I have inspected the 3rd one and I think its not leaking at all, so I can try this with the engine running
Thanks
Tony |
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Hi Tony,
Yes you need to see if the Fuel Pressure is dropping off (or going high) as the engine starts messing around / stalling, so leave it connected whilst testing If this test proves OK then you can discount Pump, Fuel Filter, FPR, Fuel Lines etc.....................
Then you will really need to look at the live data whilst it is running, to see what signal it is losing / going out of range, whilst it is messing around
HTH
Cheers Dave
Cheers Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Pianoman
Full Member
24v Ultima Saloon & 2.0 16v Ultima Estate
Posts: 246
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #117 on: Sep 7th, 2011, 9:32pm » |
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@Tompion
I never received the parts; I will PM Stuart, he’s probably been very busy.
@Dave2303 I will do as yourself and Tompion suggested and run the engine with the gauge attached as soon as the car will start.
Many thanks
Tony
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Pianoman
Full Member
24v Ultima Saloon & 2.0 16v Ultima Estate
Posts: 246
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #118 on: Sep 11th, 2011, 4:54pm » |
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Had the engine running today with the pressure gauge attached.
The pressure was slightly over 2 bar when I turn the ignition on. When the engine was running and the revs were steadily moving between 250 on 1000, the gauge was moving between 1.75 bar and 2 bar in time with the engine. When the engine cuts out the pressure stays just under 2bar.
After turning the engine off the pressure stays at just under 2 bar, is this normal?
I noticed today that the engine would not stay on at all until I put gentle pressure on the throttle to keep the revs on 1500 for about 30 seconds, after that it stayed on.
Any further suggestions would be appreciated.
Tony
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #119 on: Sep 11th, 2011, 7:56pm » |
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The pressure ought to stay stable, however it may be affected by the inlet vacuum at those revs. It may be worth disconnecting the vacuum hose at the pressure regulator (just a push on) and plugging it & see if the pressure is stable then.
Yes it should hold pressure for sometime otherwise the fuel may vaporize & cause difficult starting with a hot engine.
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