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Topic: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed (Read 17108 times) |
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Pianoman
Full Member
24v Ultima Saloon & 2.0 16v Ultima Estate
 
Posts: 246
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #120 on: Sep 11th, 2011, 8:04pm » |
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Thanks Tompion 
Sorry if it sounds a daft question but do I remove and plug the
vacuum hose at the pressure regulator before I start the engine or when its running?
Thanks
Tony
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Mike H
Senior Member
Renault Clio
Posts: 2594
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #121 on: Sep 11th, 2011, 9:54pm » |
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Is this starting to look like we can eliminate fuel supply problem?
I'm keeping in mind original event(s) ~ summat 'broke', same thing (whatever it is) has stayed 'broke' 
What about idle valve or throttle position sensor not working, or wiring thereto?
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Mike H
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Tompion
Administrator
1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
Posts: 2918
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #122 on: Sep 11th, 2011, 11:03pm » |
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on Sep 11th, 2011, 8:04pm, Pianoman wrote:Thanks Tompion
Sorry if it sounds a daft question but do I remove and plug the
vacuum hose at the pressure regulator before I start the engine or when its running?
Thanks
Tony |
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Doesn’t really matter, it’s just a vacuum link to the inlet manifold (no petrol involved if that’s your concern).
My 2.3 runs much the same whether it’s connected or not & won’t generally stop if I don’t plug it/stick my thumb over it.
It simply lowers the fuel pressure by about .5 bar when the vacuum is greatest/throttle shut. With your engine struggling to keep going the Idle Air Control Valve is probably trying to keep it under control which MAY mean the vacuum fluctuates which COULD cause the variation in fuel pressure.
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ABS multiplug wheel sensor pins MK IV or MK 20
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Dave2302
Senior Member
2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
Posts: 1119
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #123 on: Sep 11th, 2011, 11:54pm » |
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Yep I agree is looking like Fuel Pressure is fine.
OK, OK my "educated guess" was wrong  but at least we can eliminate that area now 
Try getting it to start then as soon as it starts, hold the throttle so it is running at 2500 rpm and see if you can keep it running for a few minutes or longer..........
Let us know the result of that
Cheers Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Pianoman
Full Member
24v Ultima Saloon & 2.0 16v Ultima Estate
Posts: 246
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #124 on: Sep 15th, 2011, 11:41pm » |
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Managed to start the car today. It would not stay running without pressing the throttle but it won’t unless it’s left for over a week. I held the throttle at 2500 RPM and could keep the engine running although it sounded rough. I did notice that whatever revs I held it at, it still did its thing where it goes up and down a further 750 rpm. So when I held it at 2500 it was moving back and forth from 2500 to 3250, just like it does when it stays on and I let it idle.
I kept the engine going for about 4 mins but had to stop as the postie arrived. I tried again and someone else arrive so I had to give up, but it looks like I can keep it going for quite a bit although the longer its on, the rougher it sounds.
I disconnected the vacuum hose as Tompion suggested and it did not make any difference to the revs going up and down. I could not do this with the pressure gauge as it’s started to leak fuel (but it was a cheap foot pump)
Thanks Tony
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Dave2302
Senior Member
2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
Posts: 1119
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #125 on: Sep 16th, 2011, 9:09am » |
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Hi Tony,
Okay, so I think we can discount Fuel Supply then.
As it is sounding rough and hunting, the only way to do this now is for you to get a decent scanner on it and have a look at the live data to see what is going on.
A compression test may be a good idea too at this stage
We are now looking at a failing elecrical component, bad wiring or a blocked cat.
HTH
Regards Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Pianoman
Full Member
24v Ultima Saloon & 2.0 16v Ultima Estate
Posts: 246
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #126 on: Sep 16th, 2011, 9:59am » |
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Thanks Dave
I have an Alex pepper lead and his ODB2 software.
Tony
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Pianoman
Full Member
24v Ultima Saloon & 2.0 16v Ultima Estate
Posts: 246
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #127 on: Sep 16th, 2011, 4:02pm » |
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Update. Things appear to have improved today, maybe something holding the throttle down at 2500 RPM yesterday has helped.
Today the car started right away but would not stay on. I adjusted the throttle cable very slightly so the revs did not fall right down and stall the car. Now I was able to drive and reverse the car 10 ft. up and down the driveway. I also noticed that when I held the throttle down to 2500 RPM it stayed at that and did not move up and down the extra 750 RPM it did yesterday.
I also noticed that after moving up and down a few times, if I had it in reverse and kept my foot on the brake the rpm stayed at a constant 1000 RPM. I tried this in Drive and it stayed between 1000 and 1100 rpm. I then put it in park and it stayed between 1000 and 1100, but after a min it started going between 1000 and 1500 RPM.
I had the car going for about 40 mins. Unfortunately it then cut out, I restarted it several times but it kept staying on for less and less and would not start. I am hoping it’s just run out of fuel as the fuel light was on (although the trip computer said there was enough fuel for 60 miles.)I will get some more later and try it.
Any ideas
Thanks
Tony
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Dave2302
Senior Member
2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
Posts: 1119
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #128 on: Sep 16th, 2011, 6:55pm » |
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Stick at least 5 gallons in it Tony, there is no point trying to diagnose any engine problem if the tank is low, it will just make all your tests meaningless as it may be running out of fuel ..................
Remember, these engines WILL eat fuel when standing still, revving and testing
AFAIK your Alex Pepper gear should give you all the Live Data, what you need to do is run it at 2500 rpm and whilst it is hunting look at all your sensor voltages such as Lambda MAF TPS CPS etc etc, you are looking for a voltage that varies as it hunts, although MAF will do this as revs rise and fall........................
Is it misfiring, or is it just generally rough on all cylinders ?
That will help you decide where the fault lies, perhaps get an experiened ear to listen to it
I hope that makes sense to you, look at Lambda readings and TPS first, but remember tho that Lambdas will have no effect on the running when Cold, until the ECU switches from "Open Loop" to "Closed Loop"
HTH Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Mike H
Senior Member
Renault Clio
Posts: 2594
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #129 on: Sep 16th, 2011, 9:26pm » |
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on Sep 16th, 2011, 6:55pm, Dave2302 wrote:but remember tho that Lambdas will have no effect on the running when Cold, until the ECU switches from "Open Loop" to "Closed Loop"
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Could be a clue, seems OK while cold then starts going pear-shaped when warmed up. Weather's cooler now as well so more chance of it being properly cold while it's, er, cold
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Mike H
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Pianoman
Full Member
24v Ultima Saloon & 2.0 16v Ultima Estate
Posts: 246
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #130 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 1:18pm » |
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When I started the car yesterday the pats light was flashing 1.6
This was happening when it did its hunting thing.
I started it again and then the pats light was contantly flashing.
Today the car wont start at all. With the ignition on the pats is constently flashing. Dont know if this is related, I know 1.6 means faulty connection to ECU.
When the car runs I will do the scans. I previously did scans of the RPM, MAF, LTFT and both front lambda's for Scorpio-Man. he checked the scans and said he cound not see a problem. But this was when the car ran normally and cut out when hot.
Thanks
Tony
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Dave2302
Senior Member
2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
Posts: 1119
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #131 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 9:45am » |
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That PATS code could mean water is getting in the Battery side Fusebox and running down onto the ECU or Pats modules / plugs, worth unclipping the glovebox to check for water droplets around the ECU and modules
Cheers Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Mike H
Senior Member
Renault Clio
Posts: 2594
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #132 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 11:16am » |
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A nasty thought has just occurred -
on Apr 9th, 2011, 12:31pm, Pianoman wrote:I lent my 24v to my mate while I was away; while he was driving it cut out and would not start.
I now have the car back and its running at about 2000 rpm higher than it should (fuel consumption reads 5 mpg eek) and its dog rough |
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We haven't got a first hand detailed story of what actually happened when it went wrong, only what the mate says.
Whatever it was has stubbornly stayed wrong and stubbornly refused to be identified.
What we know is engine is very reluctant to run properly, and when it can be persuaded is "dog rough"
The nasty thought that occurred was, could it be valve timing has slipped? I don't know enough about the BOB's so don't know how likely that eventuality is -
EDIT: - but slack chains & dodgy slippers seems to be a bit of an issue with them (?)
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Mike H
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Simmo
Administrator
I'm an OAP !
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #133 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 12:59pm » |
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It's just occured to me that there is an article Herewhich may have a bearing on this issue having read Mike's response re timing.
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Now I'm an OAP
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Dave2302
Senior Member
2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
Posts: 1119
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #134 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 1:19pm » |
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Good points guys,
That's why I asked if it was misfiring, I was thinking along the lines of 1 broken chain = one bank of cylinders not firing.
Unless his mate had the engine apart, I doubt that the timing will have "moved", but they can and do run (rough as a bears @rse) with one broken chain
However, This can be confirmed by the compression test I suggested earlier
This really does need correct diagnosis procedures by someone who knows exactly what they are doing, or else it's gonna end up stupidly expensive or scrapped 
HTH
Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Pianoman
Full Member
24v Ultima Saloon & 2.0 16v Ultima Estate
Posts: 246
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #135 on: Sep 20th, 2011, 12:56am » |
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Good news
Car would not start today. Pats light continuously flashing with the ignition on.
As Dave suggested, I removed the glove box, there does not appear to be any sign of water or damp around the ECU or Pats module. Lightly pressed all the connectors, the car then started but was hunting as it normally does, PATS light flashing 1:6.
Switched off, pressed all the connectors and wires firmly in. Car then started and the idle speed stayed at 750 RPM give or take a slight fluctuation. Engine sounded fine. Took it on a test drive around the block and it ran normal until I had done 11 miles then the rev counter began to dance about and generally show about 2000 RPM higher the actual revs. (When it does this the engine does not follow). The car then stalled, but would start again. I think it stalled because the rev counter is confusing the gearbox. I went home then because I suspect this is not good for the gearbox.
Back on the driveway, the car would still start ok and keep running.
Since I have had the car the rev counter always went crazy after about 20 mins, but the engine always ran normal and gear changes where normal.
Tony
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Dave2302
Senior Member
2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
Posts: 1119
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #136 on: Sep 20th, 2011, 10:27am » |
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Right, excellent, so now you need to carefully wiggle the wiring near each plug and if it cuts out, you have found the dodgy bit.
Have a careful look to make sure there's not a bare wire shorting or one broken / pulled out of a plug.
If all is okay, a squirt of electrical cleaner in each plug and then make sure they are all clipped home firmly, that should do the trick
Rev Counter wise, that should not confuse the gearbox if the engine is running okay, a look at live data engine RPM will tell you if the ECU is seeing RPM okay, while Rev Counter is playing up.................
Don't forget they can be a bit prone to stalling untl they have completed a couple of "OBD Trips" to re learn their settings
(Around 15 to 20 miles is an "OBD Trip")
HTH
Regards Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Tompion
Administrator
1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
Posts: 2918
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #137 on: Sep 20th, 2011, 1:50pm » |
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on Apr 11th, 2011, 9:58pm, Tompion wrote:If you’re using the Alex Pepper lead you’ll find on the enhanced page the desired RPM & the actual RPM – this will be higher with a cold engine. I would imagine you’ll find a range where the screw has little effect (because you’ll be within the range of the IAC which will be trying to correct the actual RPM to the desired RPM).
I would have thought you should be able to see a witness mark/line of carbon where the butterfly had been originally, but as Matt said you need to find the leak first – assuming there is one.
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As mentioned back on the first page you can see the desired revs/actual revs on the enhanced page of the Alex Pepper software, presumably if the ECU is receiving false information it will be trying to set the revs to that - which could cause the fluctuating tickover.
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Mike H
Senior Member
Renault Clio
Posts: 2594
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #138 on: Sep 20th, 2011, 4:00pm » |
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Eureka, leccy gremlins raising their ugly bonces again then, so there you go. 
Little barstewards them leccy gremlins
I agree with Dave 3202 most often just unplugging a connector and putting it back will clear a bad contact (you've found that out just by wiggling it), contact cleaner is a good idea as well.
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Mike H
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Mike H
Senior Member
Renault Clio
Posts: 2594
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #139 on: Sep 20th, 2011, 4:04pm » |
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Appendix ~ these leccy gremlins have put the car off the road for nearly 6 months, bet they're so smug
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Mike H
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