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Topic: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed (Read 17106 times) |
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pedropedro
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Posts: 677
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #80 on: Jul 27th, 2011, 7:45pm » |
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highly unlikey i am the only scorpio driver with a rubbish cable from edis to ecu..maybe they changed the cable at some stage but doubt it ..symptoms are intermittent running ,,dying etc and it looks like it is fuel problem but ecu controls pump.. chicken and egg.......no fire no fuel pump drive....it takes 2 hours to run in a new cable...if I had another scorp i would cut into that short loom from the edis and then open the coax cable carrying the x3 wires to the ecu to see its condition..would take 15 mins to do that ..if ok can tape back together
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Mike H
Senior Member
Renault Clio
 
Posts: 2594
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #81 on: Jul 27th, 2011, 8:34pm » |
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on Jul 27th, 2011, 7:45pm, pedropedro wrote:| highly unlikey i am the only scorpio driver with a rubbish cable from edis to ecu.. |
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Are you sure about that? 
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Mike H
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pedropedro
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Posts: 677
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #82 on: Jul 27th, 2011, 9:08pm » |
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about what ? ........ ok got it !
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howiedintheplace
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Based near Evesham
Posts: 1194
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #83 on: Jul 28th, 2011, 10:19am » |
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It could be the wiring.
The crazy rev counter & sudden no go then starts & general eratic symtoms does also point to it.
One wire goes to the ecu & one back to the module.
The rev counter gets a signal from the ECU so it points to the wire from the module to the ecu.
You can test it by monitoring the injectors & module output but I don't know how electrically minded you are as it's gonna be above most DIYer's.
However it could still be the pump & fuel system so you need a list.
Work you way down the list testing everything & eventually you will find the problem.
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Dave
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Mike H
Senior Member
Renault Clio
Posts: 2594
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #84 on: Jul 28th, 2011, 9:43pm » |
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To double-quote PJDavis (I think) given the age of the cars now electrical wiring has to be high on the suspects list
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Mike H
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Mike H
Senior Member
Renault Clio
Posts: 2594
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #85 on: Jul 28th, 2011, 9:44pm » |
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PS: think yourselves lucky we aren't using rubber insulation any more!
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Mike H
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pedropedro
Full Member
Posts: 677
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #86 on: Jul 30th, 2011, 10:10am » |
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easier way to check that edis ecu cable...unplug edis connector.....find the red/white blk/white purple/ white wires (without opening sleeving) those wires are clearly visible ........inspect carefully and you will/may see fine cracks in insulation..bend those exposed sections slightly and you may see the insulation crack / open. Oddly the other wires will probably be ok
the x3 wires above are however in a separate sleeved cable and maybe different supplier...ive wrapped my new cable in aluminium foil in the section next to the header tank hose which gets very hot
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Pianoman
Full Member
24v Ultima Saloon & 2.0 16v Ultima Estate
Posts: 246
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #87 on: Aug 19th, 2011, 9:04pm » |
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I am back on this again. Thanks to everyone who’s posted so far. Not been doing much on this as my wife who works away has been home for 3 weeks and I have also been diagnosed with ME/chronic fatigue syndrome so don’t have much energy to sort the Scorpio after I have been working all day. Anyway today I did the following
Put fully charged battery into Scorpio. It started first time but hunted wildly between 2000 and 150 RPM then cut out after about 15 seconds. Started it again and the same thing happened. After that it would not start.
I then lifted the header tank and followed Pedroperdro’s suggestion of bending the short loom immediately after the edis plug. I could not do this while the engine was running as it would no longer start, but I did bend it in various directions and then tried to start the car without any luck.
Checked the wires going into the edis connector and they do have fine cracks in but no worse them most of the other wires around the car.
I then tried to check the plugs, but my spark plug wrench would not reach. Tried to buy a longer wrench from Halfords but they did not know the spark plug size, they reckoned the spark plugs for a 24v cost £8 a set so they have wrong info. Can someone please tell me the 24v spark plug diameter so I can get a wrench?
Going to buy a fuel filter next, Halfords actually had a 24v filter according to their catalogue, but should I trust it to be correct for my car? I know they are overpriced but they are 2 mins from my house.
Can anyone suggest what I should try next?
Done the following so far
Changed the Fuel Pressure regulator
Cleaned IACV
Replaced Fuel pump relay
Disconnected Aircon Compressor
checked vacuum pipes/manifolds for air leaks
MAF cleaned
Replaced Fuses F16 and 17 in main fuse box.
Replaced Fuses 31,34,37 and 42 in aux fuse box
Replaced relay R17 and 19 in aux fuse box.
Fitted New Battery
Recap of problem
Mate borrowed car, while he was driving it cut out. AA man increased idle speed to stop it cutting out.
When I got it back I put the idle speed back and found it started ok from cold and ran fine until it got hot then it cut out.
The running time from cold start got progressively worse, now it starts first time if left several days then cuts out after about 10 seconds, you can then start it once more then it won’t start at all until its left for a few days
Thanks
Tony
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Dave2302
Senior Member
2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
Posts: 1119
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #88 on: Aug 21st, 2011, 3:23am » |
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Think of it like this............
So what is happening when you leave it for a few days ??
It sure as hell won't be dodgy wiring moving itself around and working again for a short period 
This problem has got progressively worse
My money is on a Fuel Blockage somewhere, probable culprit either Fuel Filter, or the Screen Filter on the end of the pump inside the tank.....................
By leaving it a couple of days, some of the crud will disperse slightly allowing a little fuel through to let it start.
Easy way to prove this or disprove it...................
Pressure Gauge on the Fuel Test Valve, switch ignition on, you should get around 1.5 - 2.0 bar reading, crank it and start it, and as it starts to run rough and die, if I'm right the fuel pressure will drop off at the same time
Spark Plugs are 5/8 Hex, you won't buy a "wrench" from Halfords, you need a deep 5/8 Socket and a long 3/8 drive extension bar and ratchet to get them out
But your problem is not your spark plugs
It is no good just changing bits willy nilly, it will cost you a fortune and you still might not cure it.
Proper systematic diagnosis will save you time, frustration and a lot of money in the long run.
HTH
Regards Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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gozz
Senior Member
Been around awhile
Posts: 3475
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #89 on: Aug 21st, 2011, 10:58am » |
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HEAR HEAR 
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Pianoman
Full Member
24v Ultima Saloon & 2.0 16v Ultima Estate
Posts: 246
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #90 on: Aug 21st, 2011, 12:11pm » |
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Thanks Dave, I have ordered a fuel filter, anyone know where I can get a cheap fuel pressure guage ?
Thanks
Tony
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Tompion
Administrator
1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
Posts: 2918
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #91 on: Aug 21st, 2011, 12:42pm » |
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Obviously you need to take care when messing about with petrol and electricity but you could try disconnecting the return fuel line near the injectors and with the pump relay pins bridged see if the flow trails off, or measure the draw in amps of the fuel pump.
Below are the results I got with my 2.3 that I had posted in the thread Highlander mentioned earlier. The cossie I believe has a stronger pump so the results may differ.
on May 24th, 2007, 1:07pm, Tompion wrote:I removed the fuel pump relay & put an ammeter across pins 1 & 3:
No pressure 2.86Amps
Normal 4.08Amps
Return blocked 5.6Amps
I have a non standard FPR although it should be at normal pressure.
The no pressure reading was pumping into a fuel can, it delivered 5litre’s in 2min 50 seconds.
Dave
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ABS multiplug wheel sensor pins MK IV or MK 20
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Mike H
Senior Member
Renault Clio
Posts: 2594
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #92 on: Aug 21st, 2011, 5:55pm » |
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on Aug 21st, 2011, 3:23am, Dave2302 wrote:This problem has got progressively worse
My money is on a Fuel Blockage somewhere, probable culprit either Fuel Filter, or the Screen Filter on the end of the pump inside the tank.....................
By leaving it a couple of days, some of the crud will disperse slightly allowing a little fuel through to let it start.
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Does kind of make sense I must admit
'Couse with this kind of system fuel is flowing all the time, up from the tank and then the 'excess' back to the tank via the fuel regulator, it's not like the old carburettor method where it just pumps it up then holds onto it. In that case blockage probs only really show up when you try booting it on the dual carriageway
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Mike H
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pedropedro
Full Member
Posts: 677
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #93 on: Aug 21st, 2011, 7:13pm » |
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didnt you say there was a clicking noise around the edis area? also rpm gauge erratic ...when it runs just reach down to that cable from the edis and move it around, bend it and see if it stops the engine. Just sounds like exactly the symptoms i had
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Tompion
Administrator
1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
Posts: 2918
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #94 on: Aug 21st, 2011, 9:27pm » |
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I think the vast majority of these types of problems have been electrical, I don't remember seeing much that was fuel related.
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ABS multiplug wheel sensor pins MK IV or MK 20
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pedropedro
Full Member
Posts: 677
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #95 on: Aug 22nd, 2011, 7:47am » |
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the cracked insulation on that cable from the edis may not appear to be an issue from a visual inspection ....also its not obvious until you strip back loom that its shielded...the coax touches the broken wires inside the cable and shorts them to ground...when i stripped back the cable itself it was a mess inside under the rubber sheathing
oddly the other wires in that loom from the edis which arent sheathed on both my scorps are perfect; just the x3 in that cable that runs to the ecu are cracked..that was the indicator i was trying to point out
if it werent screened it probably wouldnt be an issue . you might conclude no worse than rest of wiring on first inspection
I would suggest to prove when running bend that edis cable
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Dave2302
Senior Member
2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
Posts: 1119
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #96 on: Aug 22nd, 2011, 10:15am » |
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on Aug 21st, 2011, 12:11pm, Pianoman wrote:anyone know where I can get a cheap fuel pressure guage ?
Thanks
Tony |
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For a quick "one off" test any gauge that goes at least 0 - 60 psi and the line off an old footpump wil fit the test point..............Yes I know it won't be fuel proof, but it won't disintegrate in a couple of minutes either, and is a lot cheaper than a proper "garage" type fuel pressure test kit
HTH Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Octavian_P
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1126
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #97 on: Aug 22nd, 2011, 10:58am » |
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I had the same and exactly problem:
Will sometime start, but run horrible and then die
Will sometime stall in D or R
Will not start for long periods
Rev meter showing erratic
In the end also dead battery
Fouling the spark plugs with fuel
Keeping it around 2000 rpm will make it run but badly.
Problem was split in different areas:
- Edis connector wouldn't make contact
- Broken wires (impossible to see) - the famous screened 3 wires
- Broken tach wire
- Broken coil pack wires
- Broken CKP wires
Now a little technical facts
1) On the 24V the rev meter is controlled by the EDIS using only one wire (white / green) - the engine will run without it, but the meter wouldn't work. When the insulation of this touches ground or another wire it will show weird readings (or none)
2) The 3 screened wires go from the EDIS to the ECU and are responsible with carrying out the converted CKP signal and also adjusting spark timing (bi-directional communication from EDIS to ECU). When you have problems here, like i did, the engine will stall, and stop / start randomly.
3) CKP wires - broken insulation between them shorting out and making the EDIS believing the engine was not turning resulting in no spark
I have fixed these wires and the car has run great for a while. Now i'm having problems with the 3 wires that go from the EDIS to the coil pack and the ground / power distribution.
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2.0 16V Ultima|2.3 16V Ghia|2.9 24V Cosworth Ghia
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Mike H
Senior Member
Renault Clio
Posts: 2594
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #98 on: Aug 22nd, 2011, 12:26pm » |
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on Aug 22nd, 2011, 10:15am, Dave2302 wrote:
the line off an old footpump wil fit the test point..
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Top tip is that 
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Mike H
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Pianoman
Full Member
24v Ultima Saloon & 2.0 16v Ultima Estate
Posts: 246
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Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed
« Reply #99 on: Aug 22nd, 2011, 3:49pm » |
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Thanks for the tip, sadly I dont have an old foot pump, will this do the job Ebay Item number: 250872145890 ?
Tony
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