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Topic: 24v injectors not working? (Read 22440 times) |
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TNT
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24v injectors not working?
« on: Aug 25th, 2011, 11:09pm » |
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Hello,
I bought a Scorpio for the engine to put in my mk2 Ford Granada, started it on the car and it worked just fine. Took all the loom out, from headlights to backlights and cut whatever I thought wasn't needed. Now the engine is in my garage, I wired the simplified loom and it won't start.
The PATS LED flashes regularly then goes off (as supposed to) the fuel pump builds up pressure (when key is in II position) then stops, the engine cranks, it does have spark (I took 2 of the leads out to check) but still, it won't start.
The gear selector plug is still in place (I only tried to start it in N or P) and the auto box still attached.
Any suggestions please ?
Also some wires I cut but might need them ?
And these wires look rather tired (the copper in some was exposed and I had to redo the insulation on them).
Thank you!
[s][/s]
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Dave2302
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Re: 24v injectors not working?
« Reply #1 on: Aug 26th, 2011, 7:38am » |
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How do you know the injectors aren't working ??
I'd suggest a code read before doing anything else 
HTH Dave
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martin_rowe
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Re: 24v injectors not working?
« Reply #2 on: Aug 26th, 2011, 8:43am » |
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each injector should have battery voltage on one wire, the other is switched to earth by the ecu, you can test with a test light.
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TNT
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Re: 24v injectors not working?
« Reply #3 on: Aug 26th, 2011, 10:24am » |
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@ Dave: I don't know for sure, I just assumed that considering there is spark it must be the injectors that don't work ...
I live in the countryside and there's no one with an OBD2 reader around.
I will try and buy one.
@ martin: I will check them with the test light.
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Matt
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Re: 24v injectors not working?
« Reply #4 on: Aug 26th, 2011, 10:36am » |
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Where are you located, a few of us on here have readers and im sure would be happy to pop round for a bacon sandwich and a cuppa lol
The Last pic is the engine loom, if they have cracked there and you reckon you injectors arnt working then its almost 100% likly the loom to the injectors have no insulation on them at all as it will be sitting ontop of the block, you'll need to get the loom out and have a good look at it
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TNT
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Re: 24v injectors not working?
« Reply #5 on: Aug 26th, 2011, 12:28pm » |
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Many thanks Matt, but I am from Romania. And the Scorpios are rather rare, so not many people are good at them.
Still, if any of you come to Romania you're welcome to try some traditional drinks 
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Cosray
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Re: 24v injectors not working?
« Reply #6 on: Aug 27th, 2011, 8:44am » |
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Hi TNT, just to get my bearings a few thoughts and questions--
when separating the 24v engine from your donorcar how did you judge what wiring NOT to use and snip off? These may have been just vital to engine operation... now I can think of a few but that would be a shot in the dark.
Did you have knowledge of their exact functions e.g. by the 24v schematics or color-coding tables on the website?
What year was the donor?
Did it have a separate PATS module under the dash?
Now since you mention you have a spark this tells me the CPS/Coilpack/EDIS loop, which operates standalone, is OK. Since this can function without the EEC's control you must now establish whether the three signalwires (PIP, IDM to and from the EDIS, packed in a separate grounded screeningmantle within the loom, do properly connect to the EEC, otherwise the EEC will refuse to operate the injectors.
If you use the proper electric diagram you will see them. Are you using one?
The "engine compartment loom" from the backlights + ABS sensors to front via the ECU, ABS Module and frontsensors contains many vital signalwires. Often these are brittle and cross-shorting around the section passing next to the exhaust manifold.
Does it still have the three-wire fork to the EGR-differential-sensor? And teh Baro-sensor? (usually in bad shape)
Als it connects via the cubic connectors to the second smaller "engine cut off loom" over the cylinders towards the autobox, for instance carrying the groundswitching wires for the injectors (Who are always ON ; come back to that in a minute), as well as the VSS and turbine and temp etc. signals from the autobox towards the EEC-V/ECU... many things can go wrong, giving the impression to the EEC that something important is missing.
Did you leave all wiring to and fro the EDIS-module intact? If e.g. lead 52 is missing (PIP signal) or rotten the engine will never run.
Then there is the infamous effect of the EEC-V hanging/freezing for about 24 hours if you have been working on the wiring of injectors and/or ignition (Coilpack, EDIS, CPS etc.) with battery voltage ON.
Since the Injectors are always ON on the Plus-side, the ports on the EEC may accidentally acquire a static charge because of open circuitry, which will only leak away in say a day.
Meanwhile it will be not-responsive, you start pulling your hair since you areconvinced everything should logically function, while you are making things worse by intensified and erratic troubleshooting... (my own experience)
My best advice today is leave everything as-is, come back in 24 hrs. If it does not start then subsequently ALWAYS disconnect battery first before starting pulling live plugs, splices and wires, best on the Plus-side.
Longer than expected -- but HTH
Ray
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Cosray
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Re: 24v injectors not working?
« Reply #7 on: Aug 27th, 2011, 9:36am » |
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Hi TNT - addendum
Re: The gear selector plug is still in place (I only tried to start it in N or P) and the auto box still attached.
What do you mean here - do you have the donor 24v engine and its original autobox still united on say a rig? ( or a horse, what's it called?)
Or did you build it into the acceptor car already? If so, what sensors are connected? What autobox? Donor's or acceptor's? (They are different!)
Is it the original gear selector plus wiring, the infamous "fuel-cut-off-loom" going over the cylinders towards the ABS area and its two cubic connectors for the "engine compartment loom"?
Just making sure here I understand.
Ray
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TNT
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Re: 24v injectors not working?
« Reply #8 on: Aug 27th, 2011, 10:24am » |
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Hello Cosray, thank you for taking the time to help me.
I'll try to answer as much as I can:
When I took the loom out I put a sticker on each and every plug I took out and wrote on it (e.g. "ABS sensor", "driver airbag", "left-front door" etc.). Then when all the wires came out I stretched them on the floor and followed the wires from the plugs to wherever they went and cut them, except for those related to the engine (or at least I thought I wouldn't affect them) A/C and power steering, which I plan transferring to the Granada.
I haven't used any electrical scheme as I'm not very good at reading them.
The donor was made in 1998.
Yes, it has a separate PATS module.
I looked carefully at the 3 wires going from EDIS to ECU but they don't seem brittle like those on the engine and didn't go any further cutting the screeningmantle as I'm not sure how I could redo that insulation (should I cut it too?). I also checked them with the test light and they are not interrupted.
A friend gave me a diagram showing those 3 wires.
Are any of these EGR-differential-sensor or Baro-sensor?
Yes, all the wires to and from the EDIS are intact.
I only cut and tried different options with the battery disconnected.
The original autobox is attached to the engine and a section of the exhaust (that I cut after the second pair of lambdas).
the original gear selector is still in place (although I cut some wires that came from Cruise Control - orange box).
"fuel-cut-off-loom" going over the cylinders -- don't know where this is , I disconnected the 2 big square plugs by undoing the bolt in each of them, and I also can't see much of the loom on the top of the engine so didn;t get my fingers there yet.
I also took this out
Thank you!
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Cosray
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Re: 24v injectors not working?
« Reply #9 on: Aug 27th, 2011, 11:24am » |
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Hi TNT - do you have a name or did I miss it?
Let's go one by one while having a sandwich.
If you cannot find the "fuel-cut-off-loom"(wrongly translated from German) then you have found your fault... it is quite necessary and it is the link between autobox and "engine compartment loom" and EEC-V/ECU/PCM.
It is the upper part in teh FORD Parts catalogue; see link
Here's a link to my relevant pics; have a good look at the diagram for the harnesses and the looms themselves.
http://bit.ly/oFQWOS
So before I go on rambling - pls indicate whether you DO have the "fuel-cut-off-loom" in place. It is about 2 meters long, contains a box for the injector splices (suspect!) and runs over the engine top along very hot spaces so very suspect.
Pls advise -
Ray
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Cosray
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Re: 24v injectors not working?
« Reply #10 on: Aug 27th, 2011, 11:36am » |
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the original gear selector is still in place (although I cut some wires that came from Cruise Control - orange box).
"fuel-cut-off-loom" going over the cylinders -- don't know where this is , I disconnected the 2 big square plugs by undoing the bolt in each of them, and I also can't see much of the loom on the top of the engine so didn;t get my fingers there yet.
I also took this out
========================
The orange box normally sits on the floor next to the heater and is essential for running the engine. A FORD DEaler once forgot to reconnect it, could not start the engine for a day and then remembered.
The cruise control section is essential as it it governed by the CCM - the big black box on photo over the EEC-V.
Now this module performs a number of periodical selfchecks to establish whether it is still connected to a car and its sensors and reports to the EEC.
When it misses components or other vital parts it inhibits - in your case - the PATS module, stopping teh engine. That could be a clue.
Read here:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/ccmonitor.htm
When you disconnected the two cubic connectors and follow the loom you will find yourself over the cylinders and injectors, on your way to the autobox. Very hot area, very suspect for looms. Do inspect the many splices; they are crimped wires.
So far for now - tbc
Ray
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Cosray
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Re: 24v injectors not working?
« Reply #11 on: Aug 27th, 2011, 12:10pm » |
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The donor was made in 1998.
Yes, it has a separate PATS module.
It is essential that ALL Pats wires are connected the way they should. In case of doubt I have the confidential electrical diagram for you.
[i][i][i]I looked carefully at the 3 wires going from EDIS to ECU but they don't seem brittle like those on the engine and didn't go any further cutting the screeningmantle as I'm not sure how I could redo that insulation (should I cut it too?). I also checked them with the test light and they are not interrupted.
A friend gave me a diagram showing those 3 wires. [/i][/i][/i]
In order to correctedly test them you must disconnect the 108-pin-connector from the EEC-V. (Disconnect battery first, if not the EEC will hang!) and from EDIS (12-pin)
Then locate each wire by colorcode OR pinnumbering from the schematic and then
a) test end-to-end for interrupts (rare) and
b) test for resistance against Ground and against Plus (should be well over 100kOhm > Infinite) and
c) test among themselves for crossconnect since they sit in a metal shielded cable
Are any of these EGR-differential-sensor or Baro-sensor?
Yes, correct. The engine will run without them connected however between 40-150 km/h the EGR circuit: Sensor, Valve are a must for smooth running and power.
Yes, all the wires to and from the EDIS are intact.
I only cut and tried different options with the battery disconnected.
Here's the schematic for the EDIS .
http://www.dainst.com/info/edis/EDIS_system_diagram.png
EDIS functional Description:
http://rockledge.home.comcast.net/~rockledge/RangerPictureGallery/DIS_ED IS.htm
One important thought: have you installed & connected the transceivermodule that fits around the key-lock-barrel, using a proper key with the red RFID in it?
Without it or badly connected the engine will never run.
If not functional it will immobilise the engine through PATS and CCM.
(BTW The CCM is the black wide box with big connector and loom over the EEC in your photo.)
Finished my sandwich - let me know how you go --
HTH
Ray
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TNT
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Re: 24v injectors not working?
« Reply #12 on: Aug 27th, 2011, 2:36pm » |
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Hi - my name is Titus
As it' said a picture is worth a thousand words, this is the current mess:
general view:
loom:
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TNT
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Re: 24v injectors not working?
« Reply #13 on: Aug 27th, 2011, 2:37pm » |
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details:
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TNT
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Re: 24v injectors not working?
« Reply #14 on: Aug 27th, 2011, 2:38pm » |
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what I cut:
I didn't cut any wires that went over the top of the engine so the "fuel-cut-off-loom" should be all in place.
Some members on fordpower said the orange box is not needed so I'm confused.
I have also cut the CCM is that bad ?
The round key reader is in place and I only tried to start it with the Scorpio key. At first the PATS led wouldn't go off, but then I followed a blue/purple wire going from PATS' green plug through another plug and then joining other purple wires. And as I wired this one to battery + , the led went off after reading the key, the fuel pump started and then stopped after building up pressure and the engine cranked from the original contact. Still, it didn't start.
So I guess PATS is all wired up and working ?
How important is the CCM, and will the engine run without it (by joining some wires to bypass it or something) ?
I will ask someone to look for resistance or crossconect between those 3 wires from EDIS to ECU as I don't have the right tool for the job.
Thanks again!
And sorry for mutliple-post, the site won't let me post just one that long.
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Cosray
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Re: 24v injectors not working?
« Reply #15 on: Aug 27th, 2011, 4:22pm » |
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Hi Titus,
thx for all your pictures... it may look like a mess but I am certain there is system in your madness...
So I guess PATS is all wired up and working ?
Apparentlly it detects and confirms the key, which is an interaction with PATS and EEC-V vice-versa. The keycode is in EEC-V, EEC-V releases the signal to the fuelpumprelay but the handling of access devices is in CCM.
Now the CCM is essential as it - among others - controls multiplex AND opening AND closing AND Alarm. In a FAIL-situation a certain signal is NOT given to the EEC-V or, rather the other way round: EEC-V (checking periodically all components in its Component Monitor, software) fails to read a GOOD condition signal from CCM.
Read HERE:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/multiplex.htm
So cutting away the CCM (you may be the first to do that, something FORD engineers never incorporated in their design) I am afraid it suggests to PATS and EEC-V the car is being hijacked... its various comforting signals to the EEC-V are missing... and ONE is enough to inhibit further action, so no joy on the Injectors.
I know for certain that most Scorpio & EEC-V related components do regular awareness checks i.e. establishing they are still connected to their relatives , getting the right voltages within certain ranges etc.
I would therfore advise to certainly and accurately reconnect CCM.
HTH
Ray
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Tompion
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Re: 24v injectors not working?
« Reply #16 on: Aug 27th, 2011, 5:12pm » |
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I’ve not looked at the diagrams & have no idea if this applies but sometimes power/earth feeds come from a ring supply linked to a pin on unrelated items – so cutting a plug could cause a loss of a + or - feed.
(I’ve not read the posts that carefully so apologies if Ray has mentioned this).
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TNT
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Re: 24v injectors not working?
« Reply #17 on: Aug 27th, 2011, 5:56pm » |
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I bought an OBD 2 interface that should arrive next week and then we'll see what's what ... hopefully.
I'm still learning about that CCM as I had the impression it had nothing to do with the engine.
I understand what you say, Ray, that any faulty reading of the ECU could lead to a non-functional engine, but I'm not sure it is the absence of the CCM that could cause that.
@ Tompion : that's what happend to the PATS. It needed a feed from a plug that was dead after skimming the loom.
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Cosray
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Re: 24v injectors not working?
« Reply #18 on: Aug 27th, 2011, 5:58pm » |
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Tompion, good you mention this.
In fact if you look at Scorpio's Groundplan you will notice yards of cable cost was saved by FORD's production engineers grounding several seemingly unrelated compnonents.
A bit of simple damage and welding on the chassis could therfore cause havoc in the electronics.
So once you take a live body of a chassis, components and a processor apart and reassemble it in another environment this may introduce some funny errors.
I think this holds true for Scorpio as we know it - since really it behaves like a computer on wheels and therefore had a raised vulnerability for un-designed and unpredictable sitautions - such as dedrading brittle isolatuion of wires and strands.
HTH
Ray
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Cosray
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Re: 24v injectors not working?
« Reply #19 on: Aug 27th, 2011, 10:28pm » |
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Hi Titus -
I have studied your pics in detail. I enlarged them, downloaded them and magnified them where applicable on a good viewer.
General View
Frontal pic - many undefined loose/cut wires
Sidepic - "fuel cut-off-loom" connectors look good - kat connectors lying about?
Airco pipes loose - where is Aircon pump and related pieces? Control unit in dash?
EGR differentiel tubes sticking out
Loom pics 1-5
2 Fuseboxes not being complete... where is the big multiplug? Relays?
Timer/gong wires cut off
Undefined loose strands pic 1 & 2
Pic 3 very worrying 4 loose wires from multiplug on EEC-V
Pic 4 one loose end w/ grommet?
Vacuum control unit looks OK
One loose Grounding eyelet
Pic 5
Showing big green single/double fan relay
Where's double fanunit?
2 undefined grounding eyelts
Details
Good shot of "fuel ct-off-loom" running between cylinders over engine toward autobox - very suspect because of heat
Good shot of EDIS- wiring looks OK - however must clean connector inside out
Baro unit and vacuum unit OK
EGR unit looks OK
Very worrying - 4 cut/loose wires on EEC-V
Internal Timer/Gong cut/loose wires?
What I cut - worrying
Pic 1
I can see the complete CCM with partly incomplete/cut wiring, Radio Interface Unit, and lenghty, undefined, possibly radio wiring
Pic 2
ABS Module connector w heatresistant tubing & wiring, probably cut off from main engine comparttment loom, essentail Red Relay from interior,
Pic 3
Undefined mess, at least one Radio connector, one big groundig eyelet, lampholder ashtray?
Pic 4
Airbag Sensor Unit + wiring towards CCM and Steeringwheel Clocksptings... rather hazardous... lamphol;ders, connectors from dash unit? Where is dash/instrumentcluster? Needed for Cruise Control
================
So in all - I would say because of all the erratic cuts in the looms to me this looks like a minefield - at best a serious headache - for proper operation.
Especially the cut/loose wires on the EEC-V connector are worrying - using the electric diagram of course with some effort all are retraceable of course but I think you said you do not read diagrams yourself?
And the CCM cut off, ABS MOdule floating, Airbag loose - the EEC-V will be going round in circles I am afraid. But perhaps you are lucky and get it all toghether.
Shrewdness, luck & persistence - those are the ingredients I think.
Any other thoughts on this - all you folks out there?
Bedtime here -
Ciao for now -
Ray
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