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Topic: 1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting problems (Read 5683 times) |
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Paul-Minter
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1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting problems
« on: Dec 15th, 2012, 10:14am » |
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It all started with the alarm sounding off. I now have the ignition on but the engine will not crank and when the ignition key is removed all the ignition lights are still on! Local garages will not entertain it and a auto electrician tells me it is the anti theft system (PATS) I now have put the car into Dagenham Motors Group, they have had it a week and cannot sort it out, please can somebody help, I am a new member.
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Simmo
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Re: 1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting probl
« Reply #1 on: Dec 15th, 2012, 12:02pm » |
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Paul. Firstly welcome. Secondly the first thing to check is water in the electrics. Have you got a battery cover fitted? Had you, or anyone else, done anything to the car prior to the alarm going off. The main suspect for alarm faults is the bonnet switch but water in the electrics sounds more likely. Where are you located as we may have a member nearby who could offer advice or help. There is a mass of info on this site but we need to go step by step. Is there any sign of water or dampness in the passenger footwell?. This is a classic sign of water flooding the passenger side fusebox and if it enters the car it runs over the 'brains' which are located behind the passenger glovebox. 
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Paul-Minter
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Re: 1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting probl
« Reply #2 on: Dec 15th, 2012, 1:58pm » |
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Hallo and thanks for replying to my cry for help. I did have a front top hose clip break and the engine compartment was full of steam, a week later the car would not crank over at at 1am Green Flag had to bring me home, next morning started okay, another week went by and that's when the alarms kept going off and then the ignition problem happened. The battery cover has always been fitted and we have never had any water in the passenger side, I fitted a new battery just in case. The other fuse box had leaves around it and looked very damp, so I replaced this box with another from Spickie's Scorpios, with no change. I have just called in to Dagenham Motors, they are baffled (a Main Ford Dealer in our area) They are advising I find someone with a WDS or FDS diagnostic tools as they only have IDS! Well that's my story, my location is Romford Essex and I too am an OAP.
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Simmo
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Re: 1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting probl
« Reply #4 on: Dec 15th, 2012, 2:17pm » |
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Paul, I'm sure your problem is related to the water issue. The wiring in these cars is notorious for problems particularly with damp. One area of particular concern is the wiring across the top of the radiator which leads to the bonnet alarm switch etc. I'd be looking in this area particularly as presumably that is where the leak was. Go very gently as the wiring is likely to be stiff and thus the insulation will crack off. Are there any other electrical issues?. I note you have changed the main,drivers side, fusebox. The large connector to that is a pain to get back correctly and can go back with one row of pins 'out' and cause various issues. Look in How to do Things Here to see a write up and pictures. The saying is 'If it went on easily first time it aint on right'!.  Keep in touch. We have a few members in the Essex area so you may get help locally although I don't think any of them have the FDS kit.
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Paul-Minter
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Re: 1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting probl
« Reply #5 on: Dec 15th, 2012, 3:01pm » |
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Thanks Guys, the problem I have now is the car is in Dagenham Motors, they are giving it one more try on Monday, I will go over with your ideas, it might be better to get the car transported back home to continue to resolve the problems. In the mean time I will ring around the garages to see if they have the correct diagnostic system. Love the car had it for 12 years with no major problems. Regards Paul
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Paul-Minter
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Re: 1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting probl
« Reply #6 on: Dec 17th, 2012, 12:06pm » |
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Dear Simmo, you were absolutely right, I went back to Dagenham Motors this morning, asked for a technician to look at the bonnet lock and front loom, they did not have one available so I asked for the keys so I could look. The car was in the car park, I looked at the loom which was all enclosed but I was able to fiddle with the connector for the wire going to the bonnet release. Not being able to do much else I then thought I would try and start the car, low and behold and it all worked. I then told them I was taking the car and will be following up with a letter of complaint to this Ford Main Dealer as they did not have the relevant Diagnosis equipment and have had the car for 10 days! Regards Paul
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Simmo
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Re: 1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting probl
« Reply #7 on: Dec 17th, 2012, 12:34pm » |
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Paul, That is great news. I take it you mean the bonnet alarm switch for that is what sticks up in the slam panel just to the left of the bonnet catch mechanism. It does point to a wiring issue so in due course you may need to do more work.
If you look at This link and scroll down to items 5 and 6 you can see the alarm switch.. depicted as a conical coil..and its connector which is just inside the panel.
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Paul-Minter
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Re: 1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting probl
« Reply #8 on: Dec 17th, 2012, 4:41pm » |
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Sorry False alarm! After getting the car home successfully on going out again I found the same problem exists car would not start and the ignition stayed on when key is removed. If I disconnect and reconnect the battery with the key out then insert the key the car will not crank over. but if I disconnect and reconnect the battery with the key still in the ignition, the car will then start!!
Other observations,
RAC man did an ignition lock check said he had 12.5v on red but had 7.5v feeding back in the black wire which should'nt be, he also had 1:3 code stating that the key code has not been accepted, and advised it is a PATS problem.
Also no signal from the key fobs, boot has to be opened with the key, when central locking and setting t he alarm manuallyhazards do not flash.
Do you think if I found a garage with a WDS diagnostic tool they would identify the problem?
Paul
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Simmo
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Re: 1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting probl
« Reply #9 on: Dec 17th, 2012, 5:42pm » |
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Sorry to hear that Paul BUT I still think it is water related. IF the ignition is live all the time it is getting a feed from somewhere. Have you thought of trying to really dry out the engine bay either by running the car for a while,seeing as you can actually start it, or applying warm air from a fan heater or similar. I'd be seriously concentrating on the bonnet switch and surrounding area seeing as that seemed to do the trick last time.
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Snoopy
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Re: 1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting probl
« Reply #10 on: Dec 17th, 2012, 5:53pm » |
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Just as a thought , just check the ashtray Sometimes it can short out and make the dashboard live somehow. just open the ashtray to find out and check with small fingers behind it.
The feed to the cigar lighter is LIVE all the time.
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Paul-Minter
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Re: 1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting probl
« Reply #11 on: Dec 17th, 2012, 9:53pm » |
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Run the car for over an hour, engine compartment got very hot, will get a fan heater and keep trying to dry out. Ignition still stays on.
If the dry out method is unsuccessful. What if I disconnected the PATS module and the ignition went off, would it suggest that it was the PATS module, can the PATS module be bypassed to try and resolve the problem?
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PJDavis
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Re: 1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting probl
« Reply #12 on: Dec 17th, 2012, 10:31pm » |
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You might not want to pay any attention to me on this one! I'm an Engineer not a grease monkey however, I recently had a wee problem with the car doing two things, the car would lock and dead-lock on the key-fob, but the lights didn't flash. Funny because the lights always used to flash on dead-lock! Also the ignition lights flickered a few-times and the needles did their round the clocks thing without the keys in the ignition. Couldn't understand it, so un-locked and locked the car a few times and all was well. Then the car did it all again a week later and wouldn't stop doing it.
I thought back to what I'd been working on last, and it happened to be that I was putting in a manual bonnet release in case the dreaded bonnet-catch wire snapped. Turns out I had disturbed the bonnet switch, it wasn't closing off properly, and the bonnet unbeknown to me wasn't locking-down properly, which I discovered when the Gal leant her tiny-wee arse, (I have to say that, although she has got a wee bum right enough) on the bonnet and it made a 'click' as if it was finally shut! Course the bonnet was a 'cow' to open after that, nearly did snap the cable release!
Long-story, but I'm with the auld-yin, try the bonnet switch and it's neighbours.
Peter
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Matt
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Re: 1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting probl
« Reply #13 on: Dec 18th, 2012, 12:05am » |
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hey
i doubt very much its the pats, it doesnt work like that and no it cannot be bypassed without using some electronics as it sends a coded signal to the ecu
im not sure of any members down south with the fds, were midlands and up who i know who have them.
id go with the fues boxes being damp, spikies stuff id all second had and his storage units are similar to barns could have been damp or gotten damp when spike sent it off to you, unless there soaked theres no way of telling unless you strip them.
do you have heated seats? for some reason i think i remember a similar post that turned out to be melted wiring to the switch
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Simmo
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Re: 1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting probl
« Reply #14 on: Dec 18th, 2012, 7:58am » |
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Paul, I think Peter makes a very valid point and it is exactly in line with (a) my first point (b) your initial 'solution' and (c) Matt is quite right re the PATS. Could the bonnet alarm switch itself be faulty? Why not just bypass it by inserting a link of wire in to the connector. See if that helps. My money is still on a 'simple'....is there such a thing on these cars....electrical fault to do with that switch. May be the switch, may be the wiring nearby. As I read Peter's post it seems his symptoms were nearly identical. Let's try the simple things stage by stage. The car will start and runs well so the 'alarm' circuit could well be the problem.
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Simmo
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Re: 1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting probl
« Reply #15 on: Dec 18th, 2012, 3:40pm » |
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Looking for something else I found This on Google. The bit about the fuel cut off switch is the bit that interested me?.
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bernard_slade
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Re: 1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting probl
« Reply #16 on: Dec 18th, 2012, 4:52pm » |
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i have just had a similar experience with my scorp auto diesel returned to car after 5 mins unlocked car put key in and warning lights all normal but turn key nothing suspected immobiliser locked and unlocked with remote about 3 times in all but although locks all worked the imobiliser light still flashed periodically but no code flashed thought could be gbox inhibitor switch so tried putting it into N and got a high pitched whistle until i put it back into park still no life at starter AA man came ignored my point about immobiliser opened both fuse boxes with his test gear not finding anything amiss thumped the starter motor with a rod (used to work with old inertia starters ) but this made all the warning lights dead, he confirmed no power at ignition switch and called the relay truck which deposited it at my local garage on sunday night on monday said to my garage man i thought it started with the pats system going wrong and his reaction was never found one go wrong yet ! today i i got a call to say my car was fixed he had replaced a fuse and that seemed to put things right so no charge but he didnt tell me which fuse it was --the no charge tells me he went straight to it the car is now starting first time and no stumbling on fire up like i had found worrying but livable with now i am left wondering what blew the fuse i guess i will find out at an inopportune moment
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Scorpio
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Re: 1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting probl
« Reply #17 on: Dec 18th, 2012, 5:36pm » |
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Bernard,
From fault finder:
1. Check the PATS led on top of dashboard. Is it flashing a code?
2. Check Injection Cut-Off switch in boot
3. Check Fuses F16 and F17 in main fuse box
4. Check F31, F34, F37 and F42 in auxiliary fuse box
5. Check Relay R17 and R19 in Auxiliary fuse box
6. Get OBD reading - suspect CKP or CMP sensors
7. Check main fuse box for water contamination
Adam
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Paul-Minter
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Re: 1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting probl
« Reply #18 on: Dec 19th, 2012, 11:15am » |
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This time the problem is really resolved thanks to all your advice and to a persistant brother in law.
He took the ECU out, proved it was not the PATS and on further starting and non starting with the ECU still disconnected identified that the relays in the Auxiliary fuse box were not always doing what they should be doing, so going back to the water and dampness (thanks to Simmo's advice) he sprayed the Auxiliary fuse box with WD40! low and behold everything went back to normal.
Thanks for all your advice, in particular Simmo, wonderful websight, will be making a donation and I will be a regular viewer, Paul
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Simmo
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Re: 1998 Scorpio 24v Cosworth Starting probl
« Reply #19 on: Dec 19th, 2012, 11:41am » |
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Paul at the risk of 'speaking too soon' that is good to hear and let's hope you can now enjoy some trouble free motoring. Thank you for your kind remarks. The bottom line is that feed back, such as yours, is invaluable. Each time it builds the knowledge base and helps in the future.
Keep on the right side of your Brother in Law.....   Mike.
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