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Topic: A friend needs help (Read 2378 times) |
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Jonnycab
Senior Member
Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
Posts: 3900
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A friend needs help
« on: Mar 23rd, 2015, 3:20am » |
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This isn't a Scorpio related problem & it's not even my problem, but seeing as I am still a fully fledged member of this site, then I thought I'd ask anyway 
A friend has a 2006 Mondeo Ghia X 2.0 duratec (petrol) that he is having migraines with.
The basic problem is that the idle revs are not going lower than 1500 rpm & nothing anyone does can get it below this rpm. This has been going on for about 2 months.
A diagnostic on the car has brought up no codes. The idle control valve & throttle position sensor were replaced. The car went into FMD who replaced the inlet manifold because the swirl flaps were rattling badly, but this didn't cure the high idle.
There is no MAF sensor on this car, only a MAP sensor which has been cleaned & is working fine (no fault codes). All vacuum pipes have been checked & none are split or disconnected...& there are no inlet manifold vacuum leaks......& the throttle isn't sticking.
My friend is at his wits end & so are FMD...& so am I !!, because I've been over it as well & can't find anything wrong with it.
My gut feeling about this, is that the ECU is at fault (FMD suggested this as well).
If anyone could suggest anything constructive, then it would be of great help 
P.S....my friend was also a former Scorpio owner for 6 years
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PJDavis
Senior Member
2 x 1995 Jag X300 3.2 / 4.0 (Henley) 1957 XK140
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Re: A friend needs help
« Reply #2 on: Mar 23rd, 2015, 9:41am » |
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Does this car have a traditional throttle cable? If so is it adjusted properly? I recall an older Mondeo that wouldn't tick-over properly, and the throttle cable was perfectly free, but where it connected to the pedal the wee lead button was stuck and pulling the throttle-body open very slightly.
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I love 'Movvy'
1995 Jaguar XJ6 X300 3.2 (Henley)
1995 Jaguar XJ6 X330 4.0 (Dopey)
1957 Jaguar XK140 USA (converted to RHD, and to have fitted Mk10 420G Engine with BW 65 Auto Trans)
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Jonnycab
Senior Member
Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
Posts: 3900
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Re: A friend needs help
« Reply #3 on: Mar 23rd, 2015, 1:47pm » |
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Scorpio Mike....I've seen those posts, but seeing as FMD replaced the manifold, then you'd think that all the pipes would have been checked......worth checking again though I suppose
PJ.....The throttle cable isn't sticking at the pedal, in fact when you open the throttle by hand to 3000 rpm & let go, the throttle fully closes but the revs stay high at 3000rpm before slowly settling back down to 1500rpm 
Thanks for the suggestions so far guys
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a900one
Full Member
A scorpio is for life not just for christmas
Posts: 980
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Re: A friend needs help
« Reply #4 on: Mar 23rd, 2015, 10:22pm » |
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THERE HAS TO BE A AIR LEAK. Seals on injectors, or an injector leaking air through it, egr system air leak or to much put back in inlet.
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Jonnycab
Senior Member
Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
Posts: 3900
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Re: A friend needs help
« Reply #5 on: Mar 25th, 2015, 1:24am » |
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Thinking that the PCV hose (Scorpio Mikes post) may have come off or split we checked it (it's not very accessible) & that seems fine....in fact, it looks new. My friend checked his invoice & FMD had also replaced this hose as well as the inlet manifold.
It's going back into FMD on Friday & they apparently have a 'top tech' guy coming to look at it .....so it's out of my hands now
I know this wasn't a Scorpio problem & maybe I was a bit cheeky to post it, but in my opinion, this site is more awash with knowledgable folk than any other I've been on & I thought..."if this bunch can't give a solution, then no-one can"
Still the best owners site on the web......& hope it goes on for many years.
Thanks for your time & all the best, Jon
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Simmo
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I'm an OAP !
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Re: A friend needs help
« Reply #6 on: Mar 25th, 2015, 9:06am » |
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Thank you for your kind comments Jon and I hope your friend gets his issue sorted. I'm sure you'll let us know. I sure I speak for us all when I say that we are pleased to help particularly as you've always been in the 'front line' in the past.
Hope Caroline and Sam are keeping you on your toes!. 
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Jonnycab
Senior Member
Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
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Re: A friend needs help
« Reply #7 on: Apr 1st, 2015, 3:22am » |
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Just to update......The Ford 'top tech' guy went over the car late last week & diagnosed a faulty pcv valve. When FMD replaced the manifold, they also replaced the PCV hose, but not the valve
Knowing (from experience) how full of 'crud' these valves can get, then it's surprising why FMD didn't replace the valve as well as the hose 
Anyway, it's going into FMD on Wednesday (today) to have the pcv valve replaced & hopefully that will cure the problem.
I might also mention that my friend is also a taxi driver & this problem has cost him alot of money & alot of time off work. Seeing as FMD said they had fixed the problem a couple of weeks ago (they didn't), do you think he has grounds to sue for compensation ?
Thanks in advance, Jon
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Jonnycab
Senior Member
Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
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Re: A friend needs help
« Reply #8 on: Apr 2nd, 2015, 12:58am » |
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Another update.......FMD replaced the pcv valve that was diagnosed by the Ford 'expert' & guess what ?......
It didn't fix the problem FMD are completely stumped as to what the problem is & it's looking like Ford have produced a car that they cannot fix
My friend is now sick & tired of all this & is now going to get shot of it & buy something else....& it definately won't be another MK3 Mondeo
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Daniel
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Best cars Ever!!!
Posts: 636
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Re: A friend needs help
« Reply #9 on: Apr 3rd, 2015, 10:07am » |
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on Apr 2nd, 2015, 12:58am, Jonnycab wrote:| My friend is now sick & tired of all this & is now going to get shot of it & buy something else....& it definately won't be another MK3 Mondeo |
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Jonny we have only had Mk3 Granadas and Scorpios for 17 years, Sierras before that until my dad wanted to try something different/newer in 2012/2013. I warned him not too but he had made his mind up, so a Mk3 Mondeo Estate 2.0l Petrol Manual 88k on the clock was with us... didnt last long as Matt will tell you we had nothing but problems all different some recurring problems couldnt take the miles we did, felt cheap and tacky, went back to the Scorpios. Now with a 98 Scorpio 2.3 Estate 189k miles still going strong, just passed a MOT no advisories 
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98 Facelift 2.3 Cuirass Ghia Estate 170k miles
97 pre facelift 24v Silver Ultima Saloon 24k miles
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a900one
Full Member
A scorpio is for life not just for christmas
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Re: A friend needs help
« Reply #10 on: Apr 3rd, 2015, 4:33pm » |
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Has it got a servo for the brakes, as I have had them leak air before. If it has, disconnect and blank off, see if that helps.
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Dave2302
Senior Member
2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
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Re: A friend needs help
« Reply #11 on: Apr 4th, 2015, 9:36am » |
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on Mar 23rd, 2015, 1:47pm, Jonnycab wrote:| in fact when you open the throttle by hand to 3000 rpm & let go, the throttle fully closes but the revs stay high at 3000rpm |
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That is a normal thing with EECV Ford cars and is down to the decay parameter in the ECU which is designed to allow the revs to die away slowly when not in gear / moving, but of course it should settle to a regular idle.
The "desired" and also the "actual" idle speed should be visible in live data, if desired says 1500rpm then ECU needs reflashing, if it says 800rpm ish then there is an air leak somewhere !!
The reason Ford can't fix it is coz the Bean Counters got rid of all their top tech guys, like me back in the day and employed lower paid muppets !!
Mind I'm not complaining, got a good redundancy package lol.
Oh, btw also worth checking what ECT the ECU is seeing, as Mondys are known to have a ridiculously high idle when cold, and if the ECT or it's wiring has a high resistance it may think the engine is cold when warm, so be admitting extra air via IACV
HTH
Cheers Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Jonnycab
Senior Member
Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
Posts: 3900
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Re: A friend needs help
« Reply #12 on: Apr 8th, 2015, 3:00am » |
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Dave2302.... A tickover live data scan with my Autel MS509 reads the same as the rev counter on the car....minimum 1500 rpm & max 4000rpm (yes, can stick at 4000rpm before settling to 1500 rpm).
Did consider wiring loom as car has 165,000 miles on the clock, but as whole loom is encased in plastic heatshield it's difficult to determine (I didn't go that far into it because it isn't my car ), but FMD said loom was fine. Also cold tickover is no higher than warm tickover & before this episode, the car used to idle normal at 800rpm when cold.
Anyway, seeing as the car has seen some miles now & is getting untrustworthy, my friend is going to get rid of it & has infact bought a new car.....a Vauxhall Insignia (he's stepped away from Fords, just as I did)
Thanks for all the suggestions & comments everyone, but I think this particular Mondeo is now destined for parts recyling
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Tompion
Administrator
1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: A friend needs help
« Reply #13 on: Apr 8th, 2015, 3:56pm » |
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Your Autel scanner I assume doesn’t show the desired revs. It rather depends on what “cold” is. The Alex Peper OBD lead on the Scorpio shows the desired revs on a cold engine (but not particularly cold day) to be around 100 – 150 revs higher (if I remember correctly) than that of a warm engine & there’s no noticeable difference on the rev counter. The actual revs are usually within a few revs of the desired revs. The desired revs would be higher on a frosty day, gradually dropping back as the engine warms (assuming the temp sender & wiring are good).
The point is the ECU will always try to match the actual revs to the desired revs. If it incorrectly thinks the desired revs should be high it will attempt to set them to match. On the other hand if the desired revs are “normal” but the revs are high then something like an air leak is preventing the ECU bringing the revs down.
Whilst knowing whether desired revs & actual revs match won’t tell you the exact problem it may help in ruling things out/point you in the right direction.
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Jonnycab
Senior Member
Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
Posts: 3900
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Re: A friend needs help
« Reply #14 on: Apr 10th, 2015, 3:06am » |
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Hi Dave (Tompion).....I can always rely on you to blow my mind
It is possible, even highly likely that my Autel scanner doesn't show desired revs, but FMD diagnostics should & they didn't get anything either
Anyway, the saga is now finished & car is heading either to a new owner or scrappy......& my friend is happy with his new Vauxhall Insignia
P.S.....is your front room still full of my old spares ?
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Tompion
Administrator
1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: A friend needs help
« Reply #15 on: Apr 10th, 2015, 12:40pm » |
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Hi Jon
No...... they're filling the back bedroom along with the bits I already had
Dave
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Dave2302
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2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
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Re: A friend needs help
« Reply #16 on: Apr 11th, 2015, 9:48am » |
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on Apr 8th, 2015, 3:56pm, Tompion wrote:The Alex Peper OBD lead on the Scorpio shows the desired revs on a cold engine (but not particularly cold day) to be around 100 – 150 revs higher (if I remember correctly) than that of a warm engine & there’s no noticeable difference on the rev counter. The actual revs are usually within a few revs of the desired revs. The desired revs would be higher on a frosty day, gradually dropping back as the engine warms (assuming the temp sender & wiring are good).
The point is the ECU will always try to match the actual revs to the desired revs. If it incorrectly thinks the desired revs should be high it will attempt to set them to match. On the other hand if the desired revs are “normal” but the revs are high then something like an air leak is preventing the ECU bringing the revs down.
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I agree, that's exactly the point I was trying to get across, but in plainer English LOL.
The Scorpio ECU as Dave T rightly says, only steps the revs up by a max of 300 at - 25c.
However the Mondeos, (as Matt and I found out when messing with their ECU's to run a Manual 24V engine), will fire up and run at 1500 rpm on a chilly morning !!
That's why I suggested checking ECT sender, as they are noted for going all green and furry inside the plug
Cheers Guys,
Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Jonnycab
Senior Member
Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
Posts: 3900
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Re: A friend needs help
« Reply #17 on: Apr 15th, 2015, 1:57pm » |
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I spoke to my friend yesterday & he informed me that FMD had finally managed to fix the problem ....& that it was the idle control valve at fault
The idle control valve was the very first thing my friend replaced, as it seemed the obvious culprit & FMD didn't suspect it, as it looked brand new & didn't throw up any codes.
It would appear that the brand new idle control valve was infact faulty from the off (it was a pattern part) & now that it's been replaced with a genuine Ford one the car is ticking over as it should.
Moral of this story is.....beware cheap pattern parts, as you may just be buying a load of rubbish
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