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Topic: Cosworth wont start (Read 2472 times) |
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pyramidls
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Cosworth wont start
« on: Apr 29th, 2021, 9:57am » |
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Hello Everyone,
I've recently bought a 1995 Scorpio Cosworth which wont start.
I discovered that the engine management fuse (f37) had blown and kept blowing when replaced. I traced this back to a chafing wire, fixed it and the fuse is ok now.
When you turn the key to position 2, the lights on the dash come on but the fuel pump isnt running. I have tested the fuel pump relay and this seems to be working correctly. It appears that the 2nd relay in the fuel pump relay isnt getting triggered by the PCM. I wonder if it is PATS related, although the pats light isnt on and no pats code is generated to indicate any form of immobilisation.
When you turn the key to position 3 nothing happens, no starter etc.
Has anyone any idea what this is and what to look at?
I would be grateful for any help with this matter.
Thanks
Neil
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Torbayboy
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Re: Cosworth wont start
« Reply #1 on: Apr 29th, 2021, 12:45pm » |
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I know this sounds basic and I dont wanna insult you, but you have checked the trip switch for the fuel pump in the boot (car) or side by rear lights (estate), sometimes just a gentle knock sets them off
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Cosworth Scorpio only 46 on the road now NOW down to 42.
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: Cosworth wont start
« Reply #2 on: Apr 29th, 2021, 1:45pm » |
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What does the PATS light do? When you turn the ignition on it should light then go out. In daylight it can be difficult to see - I can only just about see it with my hand shielding it from daylight.
If it is lighting & going out it can be a problem in the wiring between the EDIS & the PCM. If the PCM doesn't get a good signal it won't power the fuel pump relay. Some people including me have had to replace the shielded 3 core cable.
Having said that I think the pump should still run for a few seconds (if the PATS light lights and goes out) as normal when you turn on the ignition - you can normally hear it run but you may need to be at the back of the car to hear it.
Dave
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ABS multiplug wheel sensor pins MK IV or MK 20
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Snoopy
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Re: Cosworth wont start
« Reply #3 on: Apr 30th, 2021, 8:39am » |
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There is a way of by passing the PATS. IF you want to try that email me and I will send you how to do it.
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PJDavis
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2 x 1995 Jag X300 3.2 / 4.0 (Henley) 1957 XK140
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Re: Cosworth wont start
« Reply #4 on: Apr 30th, 2021, 5:31pm » |
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on Apr 29th, 2021, 12:45pm, Torbayboy wrote:I know this sounds basic and I dont wanna insult you, but you have checked the trip switch for the fuel pump in the boot (car) or side by rear lights (estate), sometimes just a gentle knock sets them off
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Well, Neil asked me about this a couple of days ago, and I gave him a couple of suggestions, but I forgot about the 'trip-switch'!! Jags don't have them! So Roy, good Man!
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I love 'Movvy'
1995 Jaguar XJ6 X300 3.2 (Henley)
1995 Jaguar XJ6 X330 4.0 (Dopey)
1957 Jaguar XK140 USA (converted to RHD, and to have fitted Mk10 420G Engine with BW 65 Auto Trans)
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pyramidls
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Re: Cosworth wont start
« Reply #5 on: Apr 30th, 2021, 7:57pm » |
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Thanks for the suggestions.
The fuel cut off switch is down.
The pats light does light then goes off.
I'll have a better look at the EDIS connector when I next get a chance, I think the wiring on it is a bit poor. How easy is it to replace the wiring? Is the connector easy to rewire?
Thanks
Neil
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: Cosworth wont start
« Reply #6 on: May 1st, 2021, 3:51pm » |
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My experiance is with the 4 cyliner but I believe EDIS-6 on the coswoth is the same but different keyway. In fact I used a an EDIS-6 plug and cut the keyway off - just reluctant to say for certain when I've had no dealings with a Cosworth & their are different types of plugs, but fairly sure your's is the same type 
The plugs come apart fairly easily but can be brittle, quite likely the locating clip to the EDIS will break. Trouble is you can't get the terminals or at least I couldn't find any.
It was possible to buy the plug with pigtails, which is what I used but would have preferred terminals for crimping.
On another car I cut the wires a few inches long removed the crumbling insulation & shrunk on some heat sleeve over the wire and the crimp of the terminal - think I added a second layer of heatshrink then crimped or soldered to the new loom. Another way I've done it is to spring open the crimp for the insulation, flex the strands where they are crimped untill they break off then crimp the the new wire insulation back & solder the wire on top of the wire crimp - it is possible to open the wire crimp but a bit of a struggle and more chance of it breaking hence I soldered it, but you need to make sure it's not to fat to go back in the plug.
The plug I used was an AIRTEX/WELLS 1P1092 from Rockauto but it's out of stock:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/wve,1P1092,ignition+control+module+(ic m)+connector,10623
This looks to be right & lists 1P1092 as an equivelant - check the keyway compared to yours:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284148711144
Try & get duty paid it can be quite costly otherwise.
You can always try & get one from a scrappie to play with.
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pyramidls
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Re: Cosworth wont start
« Reply #7 on: May 1st, 2021, 4:06pm » |
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Hi Dave,
So you didn't run a new screened cable back to the PCM, you just replaced the connector and the first few inches of wire?
Neil
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: Cosworth wont start
« Reply #9 on: May 1st, 2021, 7:53pm » |
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Takes a while to dredge things up from my mind 
When you turn on the ignition the pump runs for a short period to pressurise the system, if the engine doesn't run the relay shuts it off.
If you can't hear the pump you can test if it did run/pressurise by pushing in the test valve on the injector rail. I usually put a bit of rag round it to soak up the petrol but it's normally only a small amount.
If there is a problem with the ignition signal such as the shielded cable failing (outside acceptable limits) then the PCM won't fire the injectors. You may find putting a teaspoon of petrol into the inlet manifold will get it to fire briefly which would suggest injectors not firing but that would depend on how serious the problem is with the ignition signal - assuming that's the fault.
Always worth checking for codes with OBD.
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PJDavis
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2 x 1995 Jag X300 3.2 / 4.0 (Henley) 1957 XK140
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Re: Cosworth wont start
« Reply #10 on: May 2nd, 2021, 6:49pm » |
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Aha! As soon as anyone talks about the wiring being suspect..................what do we all start to think? Brittle wiring, fuel shut off loom, MAF sensors. These engine compartments get very hot, I replaced lots of brittle wires, hours spent, all of what Dave says is applicable, but I wonder, and might even bet on brittle wires!
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I love 'Movvy'
1995 Jaguar XJ6 X300 3.2 (Henley)
1995 Jaguar XJ6 X330 4.0 (Dopey)
1957 Jaguar XK140 USA (converted to RHD, and to have fitted Mk10 420G Engine with BW 65 Auto Trans)
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pyramidls
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Re: Cosworth wont start
« Reply #11 on: May 5th, 2021, 7:08pm » |
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I managed to look a the edis connector and wiring this afternoon. Although the insulation is in quite a poor state, there is continuity on all conductors and more importantly no shorts, especially on the shielded cable. So I would think that this is ok, I just need to repair the insulation or replace the end of the cable.
I dont think that this is causing the non starting issue. We are not getting as far as the injectors as the starter motor isnt even turn over.
I need to try and check the fuel pump again but I'm pretty sure that the PCM isnt triggering it.
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: Cosworth wont start
« Reply #12 on: May 6th, 2021, 10:53pm » |
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Sorry got side tracked with you mentioning the fuel pump first, hadn't noticed the "no starter".
Have you checked if there's a problem with the start inhibitor relay - possibly a problem with the gear selector, try starting in neutral if you’ve only tried in park.
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Nunnspoet
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Re: Cosworth wont start
« Reply #13 on: May 10th, 2021, 7:01am » |
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Dinosaurus par excellent here (ask my family). Give the starter motor a sharp tap with a hammer. Takes a couple of mins. and no harm done.
Mike
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a900one
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A scorpio is for life not just for christmas
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Re: Cosworth wont start
« Reply #14 on: May 10th, 2021, 10:44am » |
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Hi Mike
I have sent you a PM.
Gerald.
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Nunnspoet
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Re: Cosworth wont start
« Reply #15 on: May 10th, 2021, 7:04pm » |
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Can't find it Gerald 
Busting with curiosity
Mike
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a900one
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A scorpio is for life not just for christmas
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Re: Cosworth wont start
« Reply #16 on: May 10th, 2021, 11:02pm » |
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Hi Mike
I have tried again 
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Jackattack2002
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Proud 24V owner
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Re: Cosworth wont start
« Reply #17 on: May 11th, 2021, 7:34pm » |
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My 24V does this too, but only when hot. The engine is completely dead - no clicks and the starter doesn't try to engage. I have replaced the Transmission Gear Sensor and other related stuff, but to no avail. I am convinced it's PATS related and not providing an earth path for the starter cct. Check the whole starter & inhibitor cct. There is a small chance it's starter motor related i.e. the solenoid is sticking and not engaging. I have never been able to pin-point my issue, as the engine is too hot when the gremlin appears
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pyramidls
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Re: Cosworth wont start
« Reply #18 on: May 19th, 2021, 9:41pm » |
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Ive now repaired the insulation on the Edis connector.
I tried starting in Neutral and Park without success. When you move the gear selector up and down you can hear something happening.
I tried bypassing the start inhibit relay and the starter motor did crank but the battery was too flat to turn over properly. I have put the battery on charge overnight so will try again tommorrow. It will be interesting to see whether it will fire or just crank.
Snoopy-can you tell me how to bypass PATS so I can see if that is responsible. As PATS seems to supply the earth for various things including the fuel pump relay and start inhibit relay/starter motor, it must be a probable suspect.
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Snoopy
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Re: Cosworth wont start
« Reply #19 on: May 20th, 2021, 6:35am » |
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I will send you the details in a Private Message.
Snoopy
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