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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> The 'rattle'
        
(Message started by: allante on Mar 27^th, 2004, 3:02am)

Title: The 'rattle'
Post by allante on Mar 27^th, 2004, 3:02am

My 24v has the rattle on a cold startup like a lot of others. however, I have seen talk of it lasting 5, 10, even 30 seconds before it stops whereas mine is literally just half a second or less.
My question is, is it worth just changing the offending tensioner as mine is only a brief rattle or is it pointless after all this time? ('96 with 120k).
The original instructions to FMD's when it first started cropping up was to just change the tensioner for the updated one. allthough I would think the engines were a lot newer then.
I have no rattles from the engine when it is running and you have to listen very very closely to even hear the chains going round.
There is nothing in its service history about it being changed, neither is there the white dot put on by FMD's to show it has been done.

I will eventually get round to renewing the chains and relevant other bits but thought this might be a good idea for now.

So....whaddya think?

Andy

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by Mick Saunders on Mar 27^th, 2004, 10:17am

:) Hi Andy,
Just a thought . are you sure it's the timing chains?. it could be the Hydraulic tappets jacking up. If it's only a brief sound it should be O.K. Hope this is of some help. From the length of the sound I'd go for the Tappets.
Mick

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by allante on Mar 27^th, 2004, 2:11pm

hi Mick
You might have a point i suppose, Im only saying chain as thats what the guy i bought the car off said it was. I have never had my head under the bonnet while it was started so i cant be sure.
I'll look into that one, thanks, i must admit, its not a loud rattle, sounds like an old cortina with low oil pressure for half a second ;D

Andy

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by DJWerkz on Mar 27^th, 2004, 3:21pm

It might be advisable if you talked to STN on this issue as we currently have an ongoing issue with my 24v Cossie that all started with an engine rattle.
STN has been helping me resolve a dispute with one of my local gagares who raplced my timing chains only for me to end up with with another shed load of problems.
Don't want to scare you mate, but you MUST make sure you talk to someone who know's what they are doing with these motors,...like STN ;)

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by Mick Saunders on Mar 27^th, 2004, 8:03pm

:)Hi Andy,
Would tend to agree with above. Don't take anything for granted.
Mick

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by TVR_TASMIN on Mar 27^th, 2004, 8:20pm

I would be tempted to change the chains as it would appear that the chains stretch and the tensioners cannot keep up. i.e they run out of adjustment.
I am stripping an engine at the moment with a snapped chain, but the sprockets and tensioners appear to be ok except for one which must have been caught by the flayling chain when it snapped.
I'll have a better idea when everything is apart.

Ian

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by allante on Mar 27^th, 2004, 11:43pm

Thanks guys,
DJWerkz. I followed your saga with interest, you got your car back yet?
I'll probably leave it a while and then do the chains if it starts to get worse, i dont mind doind them, its just finding the time! anyway, ive no heating in my garage so migh twait till summer! :D

I looked through the ford manual on how to do it but i think i saw some instructions on here which were a lot shorter! I have actually done it once before on an xr4 years ago when i was still in the trade but the engine was on the bench so was a lot easier!

Ian, would be interested to know if the tensioners do actually run out of adjusment, keep me posted!

Thanks All

Andy

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by Mick Saunders on Mar 27^th, 2004, 11:49pm

:) You are Welcolm.
Mick

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by DJWerkz on Mar 28^th, 2004, 12:59am

Hi Andy,
No, still not got the car back yet, don't worry, when it's all over there will be a report in full!
If you talk to STN about timing chains he will recommend that the ONLY way to really get the job done properly is to pull the engine.
Craig

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by allante on Mar 28^th, 2004, 2:29am

Yeah..i figured that. but im very good at working in small spaces, just ask the wife! ;)

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by SaveTheNight on Mar 28^th, 2004, 8:58am

hmm.. not the " only " way Craig really ... it's just that by the time one has removed all the relevant parts and taking into account the scale of the job .. it can be pretty infuriating when another < even un-associated > problem arises .. so with the engine out a lot of other things can be dealt with while while ones mind and wallet are already conditioned for a large cost repair is going on .. sortof ........ STN

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by DJWerkz on Mar 29^th, 2004, 10:06am

Yes STN, you are correct, I should have been a little more clear on what I was trying to say. Removing the engine is not the 'only' way of replacing the timing chains, but it should be the 'recommended'.

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by WAYNE on Apr 10^th, 2004, 10:02am

I have a 2.9 Cosworth Ultima 98.
When I first bought the car, I experienced a rattle when starting from cold lasting for a couple of seconds.
Since changing the oil from Mobil 1 to Ford Super S oil for Cosworth engines the rattle has stopped.
This might be worth a go as it is a lot cheaper than renewing timing chain tensioner.
Finis number 1009366 @ £37.28 for 5 litres from FMD.

Regards
Wayne

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by allante on Apr 10^th, 2004, 6:04pm

Im using Magnatec 5/30 which everyone seems to swear by. never tried it with other oil so dont know if it makes a difference!

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by scorpio_man on Apr 11^th, 2004, 9:04am

hi there

just a small point. the recommended grade of oil for the 24valve is SAE 10W-30. followed by SAE 10W-40, then SAE 5W-40.
SAE 5W-30 is the recommended grade for the 16valve. followed by SAE 10W-30 or SAE10W-40, then SAE 5W-40.

regards
ps. this info is from the 01/1997 handbook.
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/handbook144.gif
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/24vrebuild.htm

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by allante on Apr 11^th, 2004, 1:02pm

Hmmm. interesting. I did ask at the local fmd and they said that they always used 5/30 in cosworths, albeit the ford variety. cant remember which one but it was four pound something a litre.

Comments please....

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by DJWerkz on Apr 11^th, 2004, 1:05pm

Anyone thought to check with Cosworth themselves what they would recommend? Think I would pefer to stand by Cosworth's advice rather than Fords.

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by scorpio_man on Apr 11^th, 2004, 3:05pm

hi there

the 2 oils that i know of from ford are formula E which is the SAE 5W-30 semi-synthetic oil and super S which is (i think) SAE 10W-30 fully synthetic.

if someone has an older handbook, can they check what the spec was. i think it changed around early 1997.

regards

ps. i stick to the recommended grades of oil, but that's only my opinion. i'm going to try havoline (texaco) energy (SAE 5W-30) next as my cheap deal for ford oil has finished. £15 from asda/walmart. i'll still be using ford oil filters...very important! :)

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by TVR_TASMIN on Apr 17^th, 2004, 10:48pm

I have now replaced the chains and tensioners.
As i have commented on another post, it is better to take the engine out to do them.
Even with a 4 post lift, the job is very awkward and time consuming.
It would seem that there may be a design fault with the early right hand hydraulic tensioner, which allows the oil to drain back overnight, thus causing the rattle until oil pressure is up.
I am not entirely convinced by this argument, but would say the chains do stretch over time and this is why i would change them as soon as the rattle becomes evident.
Changing the oil to a different viscosity index or type is not the cure.
Please note that the cost of the parts to do the chains and tensioners is significantly higher than the info on the site is listing.
If a chain snaps, the crankshaft sprocket is more likely to suffer damage than the pump sprocket.

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by allante on Apr 18^th, 2004, 12:04am

So, if I may be so bold... how much did the parts come to and how long did it take you to complete?

Andy

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by TVR_TASMIN on Apr 18^th, 2004, 5:52pm

I have bills from various sources but i would estimate that to replace what should be replaced to include coolant/oils/degreaser/gaskets etc, you won't get much change out of £900.
As for time involved. If you removed the engine, probably less time with it in. However you will need proper facilities to do this.
If you are considering doing this with the engine in situ on your drive then you are either very brave or foolish .
Personally i do not think a proper job can be done this way.
I have been doing a couple of hours here and there when i get the time, so i couldn't put an accurate time on it.
As parts come off they will need cleaning (time consuming), this is if they come off without putting up a fight. Only use good quality tools and you will need some service tools or fabricate your own.
If you are relatively new to this type of work don't use this engine as a test bed. Strip an old Kent crossflow down or something.

Ian

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by DJWerkz on Apr 18^th, 2004, 5:53pm

From the garages I consulted when looking to have my timing chains done they all quoted around 10 hours labor. And the figure of about £900 for parts is pretty accurate too.

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by TVR_TASMIN on Apr 18^th, 2004, 6:08pm

And 10 hours of FMD labour means 20 hours of your own if it's your first time round.
Don't forget, they will have done this before and have all the service tools and a lift to make life easier.
Try to imagine lying on your back for hours with a howling wind blowing around you. Stuff dropping in your eyes, not to mention the grit being blown onto the crankshaft area once the sump's off. Don't even think about it.
I don't believe a FMD would clean everything prior to reassembly, so add time for this.

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by Eddie on Apr 21^st, 2004, 12:01pm

With ref. to oils. Regardles of oil used,whats MOST important is regular changing.
Leaving the same oil in the engine for 2 years and 20k miles is mechanical suicide.
I tend to treat mine like autobox,as soon as oil is discoloured I change it. About 3 times a year,I do use the car as a private hire taxi though!
even before I got into this business,my old cars had an oil change just befor winter set in and then sometime in the spring. Compared to fuel its peanuts.

eddie

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by Rich on Apr 21^st, 2004, 5:33pm

Your right about the regular oil changing Eddie and yes compared to fuel it is peanuts. Definately not worth scrimping on, and it will save time money and aggro in the long term. Now I just have to wait for a change in the weather and get on with my spring service.
Rich

Title: Re: The 'rattle'
Post by TVR_TASMIN on Apr 21^st, 2004, 10:34pm

I agree entirely about the oil issue.
Regardless of the quality it is good practice to chain the engine oil and filter dependant on car usage.
Stop start driving and short journeys mean changing the oil every 3-5000 miles max or maybe every six months.
Remember the earlier 70's Fords which used to have a rocker box full of mayonaise. This wasn't always a gasket problem but usually the engine not getting warm enough to burn off the water in the oil.