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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> Handbrake Advice
        
(Message started by: Paul B on Jan 9^th, 2005, 4:35pm)

Title: Handbrake Advice
Post by Paul B on Jan 9^th, 2005, 4:35pm

I've been having another look at my handbrake today but still can't get it quite right. >:(

I've taken this picture of the connection of the handbrake cable to the rear caliper....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/PCBoulton/CaliperSpring.jpg

The idea is that when you lift the lever, the cable pulls that thingy-bob and activates the brake. And when you release the lever, the springs return and pull the cable back with it. Right?
Well mine will work ok, but my springs aren't springing back again for some reason ??? and thats leaving me with a limp lever :-[

I'm wondering if those springs have weakened. Is that possible?

And on this page... http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/adjhandbrake.htm a parking brake repair kit is mentioned. Can anyone tell me what you get in the kit?

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by waders on Jan 9^th, 2005, 4:45pm

Paul,

Is the limp lever the only problem or does the handbrake not work properly?
If it all works, the cable adjuster will take up the slack.

Waders.

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Paul B on Jan 9^th, 2005, 4:58pm

No, when the lever is lifted, the brake operates.
When it is released, these things don't return (leaving the lever limp) so the whole cable is then slack.

These arm things (what are they called?) at the caliper end of the cable can be pushed back with, say, a screwdriver blade. This then pulls the slack cable tight and pulls the lever down tightly to the centre console tray.

Am I doing something obviously wrong here?

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by waders on Jan 9^th, 2005, 5:01pm

Sorry, the brakes stay applied?

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Paul B on Jan 9^th, 2005, 5:21pm

Well, they do come back just a touch. Just enough for the brake to come off I guess. But they're springing right back.

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by waders on Jan 9^th, 2005, 5:28pm

Try adjusting the cable to the point they want to sit at, apply the hand brake hardish 2 or 3 times, jack it up and check the wheels spin without binding.

Is it a "parking brake actuating lever" ???

Barry.

BTW these do tend to have alot of return travel with a slack cable.

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by mr._floppy on Jan 9^th, 2005, 10:11pm

Could the inner wire be sticking in the outer cable ? the pull on the hand brake activates the mechanism , but internal drag on the wire is too much for the spring to overcome, thus the handbrake handle is limp.

I used to get this problem on my old Audi , but only when the temperature went below zero. Water somehow got into the handbrake cable and during the night froze . Result ? a floppy handbrake lever and locked solid rear brakes .

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by easyrider66 on Jan 9^th, 2005, 10:40pm

Hi Paul,
I think you will find it is the actuator arm pivot that is seizing,
you can try and free with wd40, but the best way is to remove it and give it a good clean up and plenty of grease when you replace it. You may have to slacken the cable to release it from the arm.

Regards :)

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Richard on Jan 9^th, 2005, 10:43pm

Paul, are both sides the same or is it one more than the other ?, It could be that your caliper is starting to sieze and may need a overhaul. I had the same problem on a Sierra and had to replace both rear calipers as they were to far gone.

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Badboytunes on Jan 9^th, 2005, 10:44pm

I agree with easy rider........ its a common problem on the seirra xr4x4.......

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Richard on Jan 9^th, 2005, 10:46pm

Great minds eh ?.

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Badboytunes on Jan 9^th, 2005, 10:48pm

too right Rich. Tho how come ur posting wasnt there when i postd mine? Yet ur appears before mine..... Is the site affected by the foibles of the scorpio LOL

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Richard on Jan 9^th, 2005, 10:52pm

I edited it so perhaps it doesn't show while doing this.
But you never know,lol.

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Paul B on Jan 10^th, 2005, 6:58am

Thanks for the replies guys.

Until I played with it last week, these actuator arms didn't move at all and were caked up in dirt 'n' stuff.

I gave them a bit of a brush up, sprayed some WD40 on them and gave them a small tap with a hammer. Hey presto - they then worked!

Maybe they're just not free enough then :-/

So, looking at my picture... if I undo that 10mm bolt and take off the spring, will that actuator arm come off too?

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Snoopy on Jan 10^th, 2005, 8:36am

Its along time since I had mine apart but I think there is a fair amount of pressure on the spring in question... It is physically a thick spring..... but if you see the service manual on the brakes it is possible to take this all apart.... its all in here as you already are aware
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/brakesmanual.htm

looking at the exploded diagram. Yes it does come off..

Its worth taking the caliper off and checking every thing over inside if you can its obvioulsy sticking as you have remarked...

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Paul B on Jan 13^th, 2005, 8:14pm

OK, I had a spare hour this afternoon. Not much I know, but I thought I'd have another play with it.

I removed the spring from the top of the caliper (it's not too springy at all really). Loosened the small 10mm bolt which holds it and then looked at the actuator arm.

With a large, flat screwdriver I prised it upwards a bit. But it was a bit tight and felt... erm.... smooth. Like it was filled with fluid. Thinking that I might be in all sorts of mess & trouble if I popped it out, I pushed it back down.

My problem now is that now I've pushed it back down, it won't move at all. And the brake is stuck on >:( :-[

Do you think the piston thing moved out and need winding back?
I don't know. What I do know is that I need to sort it quick, cos I'm going to have to use my van for everything until I get it fixed :-X

Oh, and if I need the wind-back tool, where's the best place to get one? Any old motor factors?

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by mr._floppy on Jan 13^th, 2005, 8:46pm

If pushed a pair of old circlip pliers may do the trick, but I got one for £9.99 on-line. It's a metal cube which will fit any caliper design. It fits on to a 3/8 drive.

Used it on Saturday , works like a dream , and no skinned knuckles !

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Badboytunes on Jan 13^th, 2005, 10:34pm

Paul.... i f u intend to remove the h/brake cable u should remove the pads and wind in the piston with the tool...

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Paul B on Jan 15^th, 2005, 6:24pm

UPDATE:
Got myself a piston wind-back tool this morning (and what a good thing it is).
Took off the 'stuck on' rear caliper, wound the piston back in and reassembled.
Everything is fine again. Well, sort of :-/ What I mean is that the brake is not stuck on any more. The handbrake is still pretty useless though.
I can get it to work, but those springs are just not pulling things back again. As Mr Floppy suggested earlier on, maybe the inner cable is binding somewhere on the outer part. Is this really likely? And has anyone replaced a handbrake cable before? It looks quite involved from what I can tell.

F.A.O Admin... On this page http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/adjhandbrake.htm there is mention of a parking brake repair kit. I've checked this out and it is no longer available. Handy eh? >:( Maybe next time you're updating things...

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by SaveTheNight on Jan 15^th, 2005, 8:34pm

Hi Paul .. as you probably know by now ..you're in dodgy territory ..these calipers are renowned for seizing and even more so for serious brake seize after being messed with ..although many will say they are serviceable the truth is that once they really start playing up then replacement is by far the safest option .. having said that your own don't sound too bad from what you say .. so ... firstly and MOST importantly you must TOTALLY de-adjust the cable < personally I always release and unhook them completely > .. and back off the cable adjuster until there is masses of play !! ..clean all parts with WD or whatever you prefer ..but do not use WD down the cable as it actually causes sticking of the nylon cable shrouding inside the outer cable ... then and only then with the handbrake actuating levers RIGHT BACK against their stops ..then wind the pistons in ... doing this without the levers back will incorrectly adjust the handbrake wormscrews making correct adjustment impossible .. refit and press the brake pedal a few times to adjust the footbrake first and ONLY then attend to the cables ..check them for seizing and replace if necessary ..then reconnect them to the calipers .. only NOW adjust the cable ..you should find that the small movement you have is now correctly holding the handbrake .. it sounds a bit of a mission but it isn't .. and it's the only way to do the job properly ..hope that helps and shout me if you need any help ... regards ....STN

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Paul B on Jan 15^th, 2005, 9:01pm

Blimey... am I glad you turned up! :)
That's what I needed though - the definitive description. Looks like I'll be having the arse end up in the air again pretty soon then.

I must say, that todays piston-winding event was only done on one side, so I do wonder how much good that has done. But I'll give it one more crack I think, doing exactly the same to both sides as you describe.

What I don't want to do is go and splash out on new calipers if these are only needing a silly little adjustment somewhere. Incidentally, I was quoted 100quid a side (might be plus vat :-/) for exchange ones. Is that about right?

Anyway, as always, many thanks for your advice. Will let you know how it goes. Watch this space! ;)

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by SaveTheNight on Jan 16^th, 2005, 9:17am

no probs Paul ... anyway ..sounds as if you will be ok without calipers to me ..and as you say they are pretty expensive .. 100gbp sounds a bit high though and it's definitely one to search around for ..70-80 is the money really if you do get stuck .. but don't panic yet as most faults are incorrect adjustment ..< even if it seems to have been ok for a long time > ..just make sure they don't try to give you non-vented disc calipers which are slightly cheaper .. like I say ..shout if I can help mate ..... catch ya soon !! ... STN

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by john.n on Jan 16^th, 2005, 11:06am

Sounds to me as if the actual cable needs some lubricant (wd40). What happens if you disconnect the cable, does the lever move all the way back then? john.n ???

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Paul B on Jan 16^th, 2005, 11:09am

That's the silly thing John... throughout all this, I haven't actually completely disconnected the cables from the calipers yet.
Guess what I'm doing this afternoon? ;)

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by SaveTheNight on Jan 16^th, 2005, 12:17pm

that's the secret Paul !! ....... hope all goes ok .. I agree with John about the cable ends but disagree about WD ing them ..< only cos I was taught that nylon coated friction cables get worse when oiled and also drag more crap in > but that WAS a million years ago so don't take too much notice .. and no offence John .. it probably works........ STN

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Paul B on Jan 16^th, 2005, 8:19pm

Guess who's got a handbrake that works? ::) ;D

Followed the aforementoined procedure - doing an extra bit of work in the middle - and put it all back together again.

And I think I've now sorted it. It holds the car on slopes nicely and I've also eliminated the floppy lever inside the car.

What I discovered was that, even with the cables detached, those actuating arms still didn't spring back nicely.
I levered them upwards a bit (again) to discover that they are starting to corrode in there a wee bit :o So I took a bit of time carefully cleaning those as best I could and, after a small bit of lubrication, they had more spring in them than Zebedee! :D

Word of warning to those about to do this job... don't start it at 3 in the afternoon when it gets dark at about five. Its going to be well dark when you're trying to finish it. ;)

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by SaveTheNight on Jan 16^th, 2005, 8:24pm

well done Paul !!!!!!!!!! gonna start calling you percy !

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Paul B on Jan 16^th, 2005, 8:31pm

Percy? ???

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by SaveTheNight on Jan 16^th, 2005, 8:36pm

Percy Verence !! .. helps with pain in the a** jobs on the car !

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Paul B on Jan 16^th, 2005, 8:51pm

on 01/16/05 at 20:36:37, SaveTheNight wrote:

Percy Verence !!

Aha! I see. :D

Thank you doctor ;)

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Badboytunes on Jan 16^th, 2005, 10:21pm

i take it u got my pm then paul?

glad its all sorted...

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Paul B on Jan 17^th, 2005, 6:54am

I did Nick, yes. All information was logged up top... and then printed out in case I forgot it! ;D I think I might start compiling a handbrake repair manual or something.

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Badboytunes on Jan 17^th, 2005, 7:00pm

No worries m8y.... glad my info was a bit of help to u.... bit o bad news... not gettin the saab now.
will pm u

Cheers Nick

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by DB on Jul 30^th, 2006, 1:01pm

Very helpful info. I am also working on corroded drivers-side handbrake actuating arm. Cable removed but arm will not lift more than 1cm from the caliper? It appears held. Is there a bolt that releases the arm allowing its total removal so I can clean it carefully? If I do so will I release hydraulic fluid and have to bleed the brakes?

Thanks

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Paul B on Jul 30^th, 2006, 1:39pm

Not totally sure how its held, but if you do pop it out, you'll have fluid pumpin out all over the place. In that case, yes, you'd need to bleed.

I had further problems after my last post on this thread, and have since replaced the calipers with some 2nd hand ones (from a 2.3 estate).

Also, when replacing them, I drained all the old fluid and renewed it. I think that has to be your answer in the long run. Otherwise, you'll be forever jacking the car up to do temporary repairs. Keep your eyes open for some now while things are not too bad. Then you'll be prepared.

Paul.

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by mr._floppy on Jul 30^th, 2006, 4:37pm

My N/S rear caliper was similar, the actuating arm wouldn't return to its stop, on examination the arm was seized up due to internal rust and wasn't really worth fixing .

So I got a decent one from a scrappy, fixed and bled it and it works fine.

So I've got a good condition rear caliper piston going free if anyone wants it.

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by DB on Jul 30^th, 2006, 6:16pm

Thanks Paul and Mr Floppy.

Further investigation shows pads with zero lining on one side. Two corroded and delaminating discs and one seized cylinder. The handbrake problem is now a side show that will probably be cured when I replace everything else.

It is surprising that the car stopped at all. Shows how much the front brakes (which have new disks and pads) contribute to the braking.

It passed the MOT 9 months ago with only 8000 miles since.

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by exucasvu on Aug 3^rd, 2006, 7:44am

I live in France and my 1997 Scorpio is also suffering from a handbrake lever problem. Taking advice from Ford here, they told me that if the pads were changed the slack lever would automatically right itself. WRONG! Having paid for new pads, I found that the old ones were still quite usable. Next advice was 'ok then it is the cable that has stretched and should be replaced'. I am sceptical about this, so just what could the problem be? The springs certainly appear to move but I wonder if they are working properly . They look clean enough but the brake lever remains stubbornly slack. Can someone tell me if the cable can be adjusted and where to find the adjuster? My French mechanic friend thinks the cable is automatically adjusted and there is no manual adjuster. HELP NEEDED BEFORE I GET MORE OUT OF POCKET! :-/

Title: Re: Handbrake Advice
Post by Simmo on Aug 3^rd, 2006, 2:25pm

There is an adjuster BUT it is only for a stretched cable. It IS NOT the method of adjusting the handbrake. The rear pistons are on a threaded mechanism and it is this system which takes up the adjustment as the pads wear. This is why you have to wind back the rear pistons with a special tool as you cannot just push them back. Read this http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/adjhandbrake.htm. BUT NOTE what it says about adjustment. This may also help http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/brakesmanual.htm.