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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> TYRES
        
(Message started by: johnv on Mar 3^rd, 2005, 10:12pm)

Title: TYRES
Post by johnv on Mar 3^rd, 2005, 10:12pm

I just been looking around on the Web and it saying change your tyres at 2mm Well I do.
but its saying that if your car has wider tyres (but it does not mention what size) you should replace at 3 mm to resist aquaplaning
so do we need to change 225 tyres at 3mm.
The cheapest Michelin Pilot Primacy tyres I can find at the moment is £128 thats all in, fitted with new valve and balance.
But if you don't mind what make you could have,
Kumho ECSTA 712 at £77.94 all in
or if you got money to burn then
Yokohama AO22 at £214.32 all in. I presume you get a real gold valve for that price.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by Baz on Mar 4^th, 2005, 12:04am

I've just ordered a set of Yokos for my nice new (to me anyway) 17" 7 spokes which I finally got after 2 years of looking!! Having them all fitted tomorrow!!

Baz

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by johnv on Mar 4^th, 2005, 9:25am

hey baz, what happen to your love of Michelin Primacy tyres. Test reports say they are very quiet, good rolling resistance, longer lasting and very good grip.
So why change. (Just picking your brains)
And why change to 17 inch wheels. Is it because the larger the wheels the slower they turn around so making it safer.
Like a mini travelling at say 60 MPH and you with your 17 inch wheels travelling at 60 MPH side be side.
The mini wheels would be screeming around to yours that would be just going around must slower.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by Richard on Mar 4^th, 2005, 1:26pm

Johnv,If the rolling radius of a wheel and tyre are the same then it doesn't matter if you have a 14" or 20" wheel, they will still turn at the same speed, :D ;D

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by urbanracer on Mar 4^th, 2005, 1:47pm

Its not rolling radius,its rolling circumference.But what you said is correct.

If you think about it the wheel tyre radius changes through its revolution.

Rolling radius might be correct for a train wheel but then again there may be some deflection.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by Richard on Mar 4^th, 2005, 2:12pm

That may be correct for a dragster as the tyres are designed to stretch and act like a gear but this would be very minimal on a car tyre to act in this way, If this did happen then the rolling circumference would change and not give a correct speedo reading.
http://www.webster-inst.com/techinfo/equation/eqnfr/eqn15.htm

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by urbanracer on Mar 4^th, 2005, 2:43pm

I spent many years working for Goodyear,all tyre engineering data for rolling circumference is calculated on that the correct tyre is fitted to the correct rim

at the correct pressure
and under the design load tolerences
this then gives a revs per mile figure.

I have not yet read your link,but these so called Bibles are not always totally correct.

.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by johnv on Mar 5^th, 2005, 10:38am

well those recent replies have done my head in for sure.
All I know is this,
On the kitched table i got two lids off food containers. One small one and one large one.
I put them at one end of the table and rolled them along.
At the end of the table, the small lid had gone around many, many more times and it also had took longer.
Sort that one out if you can.
:D ;D :o

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by johnv on Mar 5^th, 2005, 10:42am

and i bet 17" inch wheels will give you more miles per gallon.
Well, stands to reason, the wheels will have less distance to travell than smaller ones, so that's going to save you fuel.
I have a feeling this thread could become very long.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by Highlander on Mar 6^th, 2005, 5:11am

Does anyone have a gun I could borrow.... ;)

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by SaveTheNight on Mar 6^th, 2005, 6:30am

yes Highlander !! ..many members shot themselves last time this was discussed over about ten pages ... haha !! ..some chose the head and many the FOOT !!
anyway ... rolling radius is the measurement from the centre of the wheel to the outside of the unladen tread and of course it matters ... this page is the one we usually all quote and it's definitive and simple ..

http://www.chris-longhurst.com/carbibles/index.html?menu.html&tyre_bible.html

there ya go lads and let battle begin ..... regards .........STN

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by Richard on Mar 6^th, 2005, 10:47am

LOL, Thanks STN.
Johnv, all i am going to say is that it is the tyre profiles is the important bit, If you say had a 15" wheel fitted with a 195/65 tyre it would give you almost identical figures to that of a 19" wheel fitted with a 215/35 tyre,
The wheel may be 4" bigger but the profile of the tyre is what make it the same rolling radius. :-X ;D :D

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by Richard on Mar 6^th, 2005, 10:52am

Johnv, If you read STN's link then all will become clear or maybe confuse you more,lol.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by OddJob on Mar 6^th, 2005, 2:10pm

Talking of tyres has anyone ever had fitted on their Scorp Pirelli and if so what do you think of them ???

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by Vulcan on Mar 6^th, 2005, 2:45pm

on 03/06/05 at 05:11:20, Highlander wrote:

Does anyone have a gun I could borrow.... ;)

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/violent/rail.gif

There ya go.... ;D

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by scorpio_man on Mar 6^th, 2005, 5:45pm

Quote:

Talking of tyres has anyone ever had fitted on their Scorp Pirelli and if so what do you think of them

hi there

here's a write up from eric...pirelli (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/michelins.htm)

i tend to agree with him. lots of grip= lots of wear :o

i run with Vredestein Sportrac2 (see bottom of web site page) ;)

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by urbanracer on Mar 6^th, 2005, 6:36pm

well I disagree as I said for many years I worked for Goodyear the correct term is rolling circumference this is then calculated in engineering and technical data books as will give the revs per mile figure.
The statics loaded
radius is what it says static if you apply this figure and then call it a rolling radius all calculations will be wrong,
I could scan parts ot various tech data books but it will take up a lot of bandwith.

As i said earlier these so called bibles do have mistakes some of the info has been lifted from various manufacturers and a sudstancial part from an early 1970/1980's Goodyear traffic patrol officers course

most of the site is correct but its these mistakes that people then take on board as fact.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by Pegasus on Mar 6^th, 2005, 6:50pm

Pirelli tyres:
P6000 - 225/50/16W.
My last lot lasted 25k. :(
(changed when got down to 3mm)

Anyone do any better?

Cheers

P

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by urbanracer on Mar 6^th, 2005, 7:04pm

Some might find this usefullits abdobe reader here you will see static radius and rolling circumference.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by johnv on Mar 6^th, 2005, 7:07pm

81,000 on a mk two transit. that solid beam axle at the front is the trick dunlop tyres.
a builder i knew had a mark three transit from new, and had to replace his front ones at 8,000 miles

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by OddJob on Mar 8^th, 2005, 5:45pm

Thanks Scorpio_man interesting reading
Shall avoid these at next change and stick with Mich ;)

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by johnv on Mar 8^th, 2005, 7:01pm

to oddjobman, on one of my cars there are pirelli 6000 tyres, they where on when i got the car. they seem to be lasting well, but avon and continenal not doing so good.
test reports confirm that they have good wear and good road holding in the dry.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by johnv on Mar 8^th, 2005, 7:17pm

looking at my tests reports it says that one make of tire of a certain size may do real well, but get this. the same tire and same make of a different size not so good.
well that will start some experts giving their opinions for sure. but on this subject, if they dont know that a small wheel will go around more times than a large wheel.???
----------------------------------------------------------------
If anyone want to prove it to themselves, just try this.
Say on Sunday when it is quiet, pace out 100 yards. mark the start and the stop. with chalk.
Get you spare wheel out the boot. but the valve on the bottom of the wheel on the white chalk mark and roll it to the end line counting the number of turns and write it down.
Then go and get a wheel barrow, do the same, count the number of turns of wheel.
Lets put it another way. The gears on the shaft inside a gearbox, why are they different sizes. I know but do others.
Hey! another of my pet sayings.
You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink. :'( :'( :'( :-/ :-/ :-X :-X.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by Highlander on Mar 8^th, 2005, 11:11pm

John you really need to get out more :)

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by SaveTheNight on Mar 8^th, 2005, 11:15pm

err ... what was the question ?? ... what are we agreeing or disagreeing about ? .....cheers .... STN

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by urbanracer on Mar 8^th, 2005, 11:22pm

Read this

http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/continental/transport/themes/downloads/download/technical_data_book_pdf_en.pdf

As I say too many basic mistakes in that bible example.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by Richard on Mar 8^th, 2005, 11:26pm

STN........Put it this way, I've given up. :-X

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by phuturephantasy on Mar 8^th, 2005, 11:36pm

Well I've just replaced all 4 of my tyres and had Avon ZZ3's put on as they were a good price. I find it quite amusing that a lot of people will go for the stickiest, softest rubber going and then drive like an old f a r t only ever using about 50% of the available grip, they could probably go for the cheapest tyres going made out of a much harder compound at a quarter of the price and never know the difference.

And yes my tyres get some serious punishment, traction control is always turned off as I start the car and the rears are lit up on a daily basis. And NO I don't want to grow up..

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by johnv on Mar 9^th, 2005, 6:48am

hey Mr Avon ZZ3 user. do you know what or if there is any different on ZZ3 and ZZ1.
On one of my cars there is a mix or these two. They look the same. the same tread patterm.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by johnv on Mar 9^th, 2005, 6:50am

some people choose their tyres by how chunkey and pretty the tread pattern looks.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by johnv on Mar 9^th, 2005, 6:56am

Now its all change.
Its not long ago, that i put a post about when tyres got down to 3mm; the end come more fast than when newish say 8mm.
Back came the reply, its because the tyres circumference is smaller on the 3mm than the 8mm.
I not saying who put that post up but I might tomorrow.
I rest my case.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by johnv on Mar 9^th, 2005, 7:06am

some tyres prices for 225X50X16.

Kumho Ecsta 712...........................£77.94.
Falken GRB FK451 92.93.
Bridgestone ER30 100.46
Continental Sports Contact. 100.93.
Pirelli P7 104.05
Dunlop SP2000 E 105 79.
Pirelli P6000 106.22.
Avon ZZ3 110.10
Michelin Primacy 129.61
Yokohama A022 214.32

Hey does any one know the different between Kumho and Yokohama tyres. I could save myself a lot of money here.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by johnv on Mar 9^th, 2005, 7:11am

and don't forget that if you got a car with small wheels (like a mini) your tyres will wear out faster than if you got a car with larger wheels say 17 inch, because over the same miles you have done, the wheels will have gone round much more times.. ;)

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by martin_rowe on Mar 9^th, 2005, 9:11am

one starts with a K, the other with a Y.
both black round things, with grooves on the out side, slight differance in performance, but not that the normal person would notice, oh big differance in price, just remember the same kirb takes out the side of either.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by nick on Mar 9^th, 2005, 1:35pm

Well well well,just thought i would sit in the back and listen.

Dont you pays your money and takes your choice.

The estate had zz3 on when i bought it, and it needed 2 rears so i replaced them with zz3 but i have lost them after less than 10000 miles and that is with the wife driving.
They are now changed for Nankang or some japanese stuff.

I always use mytyres.co.uk, fantastic prices and a great service .
I got 4 zz3 of them for just under the £300 last year, now thats cheap.
Nic

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by low_tom on Mar 9^th, 2005, 2:01pm

on 03/09/05 at 07:11:31, johnv wrote:

unless you drive your mini to the shops and back every weekend,and use camac tyres. In comparison you fit your scorp with 17s and lovely sticky yoko's and drive it like it should be.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by Paul_Boulden on Mar 9^th, 2005, 2:28pm

Quote:

Don`t you think that perhaps other factors such as mass, acceleration, decceleration, cornering forces etc. might influence wear rates as well ?

Paul Boulden

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by johnv on Mar 9^th, 2005, 2:38pm

Don`t you think that perhaps other factors such as mass, acceleration, decceleration, cornering forces etc. might influence wear rates as well.
=====================================
Yes of course, but I was not rushing ahead, just keeping things simple.
It's had work, try to get some people to understand what difference sizes of wheels do.

:'(

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by johnv on Mar 9^th, 2005, 2:40pm

so where do you get them camac tyres from and how much are they ;D

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by johnv on Mar 9^th, 2005, 2:51pm

thanks to the two replies on avon ZZ3 and Avon ZZ1 tyres. It was to cold of recent for me to go down on the ground to search for little letters but I do know what they relate for as speed ratings.
So To Nick. I seen that Mytyres on the web. but who fits them.
Do they have a national fitting teams.
There is another firm on the net called blacktyres, (well something like, can't remember) and they do have a net work of mobile fitting team. There is one about 8 miles from me.
I will be needing a set of new tyres for the cosworth about Easter or just after.
Of course what we need to remember, is that some tyres that are cheap are made by the top tyre companies, and sold under different names. so are good tyres

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by low_tom on Mar 9^th, 2005, 3:06pm

mytyres i tihnk you have to arrange fitting yourself,but they are quite a cheap tyre supplier,blackcircles also supply them,but offer a local fitting. They also do the camac tyres, £19.74 for a 145/80/10 ;)

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by urbanracer on Mar 9^th, 2005, 8:43pm

This is just for John

145-10 =1080 revs per mile

205/60-15 = 842 revs per mile.

;)

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by phuturephantasy on Mar 9^th, 2005, 9:40pm

I have to be honest and admit that the looks of the zz3 were a determining factor also. Directional treads just look 'Ard.

Looking at the ZZ1's and ZZ3's on here they do have slightly different tread patterns and compounds.

http://www.elite-design.co.uk/2003_tyres_stuff/Avon_stuff/Avon_main.html##

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by Highlander on Mar 9^th, 2005, 10:32pm

on 03/09/05 at 06:56:05, johnv wrote:

It was me but you can tell, its not a secret ;)

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by colinw on Mar 9^th, 2005, 10:35pm

i have zz3 on my 24v estate and they dont appear to be lasting as well as the pirellis that were on it before ,just my tupennoth

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by nick on Mar 10^th, 2005, 12:44am

You are right you just get them fitted locally or from the mytyres site there are fitters local to you. When i searched the nearest was N@*castle, well i would not spend money on tyneside, i work there i just take money out.

You are right with the manufacturers, i have used evry tyre company under the sun and the one that gives best wear rates is colway, on my old mk2 2.8i with metric i could get 4 remoulds for £200 for 4 where michies and avon were still £135 each. The car did go very sideways in the wet, but thats not always a bad thing

Seriously i paid £10 gitted and ballanced with both cars which is still d**ned cheap.

ATS quoted me 115 for the same ZZ3, Kwik crap wanted nearer 150 each, how do these people sleep ov a night.

Nic ;D ;D

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by martin_rowe on Mar 10^th, 2005, 9:43am

nankang tyres are manufactured by yokohama !!. I am a fitting agent for www.blackcircles.com their customers tell me they are very competitive, some of them drive miles just to have one tyre fitted, the tyres are delivered to me & black circles pay me direct to fit, if that works for you go for it, personally if you find a good independant they will usually beat the nationals / internet companies hands down and should be able to give you hands on advise.
as far as wear rates go, I have tried them all from michelin to trayal (the lowest of the low) and even quite a few of the remold brands, nothing has ever lasted me more than 5/6000 miles, but thats probably how I drive, if you get 10 to 15 k thats average now. to cope with cars higher performance, wet weather grip ect tyre compounds have got softer, something has to be sacrificed.
just remember that the budget brands will usually be made by the big names (pirelli make corsa ect) just go with what you are happy with, its unlikley that most people will drive outside the performance envelope of the tyre anyway, they all pass the same load / speed tests also.
martin

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by low_tom on Mar 10^th, 2005, 9:52am

still kinda on topic then martin,would you know if it would be legal for me to fit american tyres and drive on them? Personally i can't see any reason why not,but that's not to say there isn't one :-/

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by Badboytunes on Mar 10^th, 2005, 10:10am

Low tom,
when u say american tyres, what is the difference? As far as i am aware, as long as you dont mix x-ply and radials on the same axle, and the tyre size is the same on the axle then i think u shud be ok..... IMO

Cheers Nick ;)

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by urbanracer on Mar 10^th, 2005, 10:12am

For tyres to be used in europe they must be e marked.

Many types of tyres are made at plants all over the world.To be used in many different countries so they may be e marked.

What tyres are you thinking about?

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by urbanracer on Mar 10^th, 2005, 10:30am

Its ECE regulation 30,

Uk =E11
france =E2
Italy =E3

But Bias belted used to exempted if thats what you want to use.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by low_tom on Mar 10^th, 2005, 11:23am

these

http://www.shoptwm.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=15_17&products_id=956

cos i can't find 1.25" w/w over here.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by martin_rowe on Mar 10^th, 2005, 11:58am

low-tom
yes you can use american tires, just remember bias belted are still common over there, take bias belted as cross ply, if you fit bias belted they must be all round or on the front with radial on the raer only.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by low_tom on Mar 10^th, 2005, 12:16pm

it's gonna be fitted up all round anyway. The cost of tyres for 14s means that i always do all 4 at a time. Thanks for the info and help guys :)

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by urbanracer on Mar 10^th, 2005, 12:58pm

just had a look at EEC 30 the exemption for bias belted ended in 1997 so these must now be e marked.
But you say 175/70-14 which are radials some must also be e marked.
One problem is that the conversion must not exceed 2% of overall manufactures overall diameter some say 2.5% 175/70-14 is outside the tolerances allowed.
The Granada/scorpio started with these sizes
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TADrArUWM3CeZtPScgEKAt7YecUjs6zefMSbteuvz5VhrBRTZwRdikR4BfUwKHp9AHBNL46r9hIRmtSqjJPy6*!ENMLv7U6Z*n1LHqM*WRnAKLaLn4nOJg/Image1.jpg?dc=4675513431137256997
[So a 175-14 or 185/70 -14 are the sizes to go for.

Just hope the above is Ok to post here.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by urbanracer on Mar 10^th, 2005, 1:03pm

Forgot to post bit of EEc 30

"approval mark" means a mark of a description specified in ECE Regulation 30, 30.01, 30.02, 54 or 75 or in EC Directive 92/23 which, when applied to a tyre, indicates that the tyre conforms with a type in respect of which approval has been granted pursuant to that instrument

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by low_tom on Mar 10^th, 2005, 1:35pm

erm...what's that in laymans terms please? I'm running aftermarket 14x7" wheels,currently with 185/60/14 tyres. I was tempted to fit 165/60 stretched over the wheels,having given up on finding reasonably priced w/walls. Then i found these.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by urbanracer on Mar 10^th, 2005, 8:42pm

Sent you a PM.

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by admin on Mar 13^th, 2005, 7:55am

Just be grateful

My Corvette has 275 40 17 in the front and 315 35 17 at the rear - I hate to think how much they would cost in the UK - fortunately in the US they are a common size and so quite cheap even for the quality brands.

Steve

Title: Re: TYRES
Post by nick on Mar 13^th, 2005, 1:44pm

315x35 now that is a rubber band, why have such big tyres when we all know you dont make turns, just go in a stright line
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Its all right ill get me coat
;)
Nic