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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >>  LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB can it work
        
(Message started by: Baz on Feb 4^th, 2006, 6:45pm)

Title: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB can it work
Post by Baz on Feb 4^th, 2006, 6:45pm

Got first refusal on a 24v granada cosworth LPG system, how easy is it to transplant the system to my 98 24v?

Any advice would be good

Baz

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by scorpio_man on Feb 4^th, 2006, 8:09pm

hi barry

do you know what type/make it is? will you be doing the swap yourself?

these guy's are good....http://www.autogas2000.co.uk/

hth

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Baz on Feb 4^th, 2006, 8:21pm

Andrew, quote from the guy selling the LPG system

"autogas world wide ltd,pentrepoeth road, bassaleg newport np10-8rr that is the address of the place that my car was converted and the lads there would sort you out with the manual if u r stuck. once again andy."

The tank is the cylindrical stako 75 litre one that fits in the wheel well

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by scorpio_man on Feb 4^th, 2006, 9:11pm

hi barry

i only know of one diy 24v conversion (thunderchild). i think it's straight forward enough, just a fair bit of work. the basic kit is the same, afaik. you would need to make sure you had everything. you need a test as well.

how's the price. fitted kits are about £1700. :-/

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Baz on Feb 4^th, 2006, 9:24pm

200 quid!! so not too bad a bargain methinks. If I have problems, it can go back onto EBay!!

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by howiedintheplace on Feb 4^th, 2006, 9:33pm

If it ran a BOA O.K then it will be O.K on a BOB.

All about getting enough gas into the engine, think of it like a carb, too small & you will get flat spots & a restricted top end.
If you fitted a 2.0L kit then it would need uprating for a 24V & so on.

Very good price that & if you want to sell it on let me know ;)

Get the manual for the kit if you can, also you will have to get a certificate to say you have installed it proper, that is the hard part ;D

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Baz on Feb 4^th, 2006, 9:34pm

and how does one get the certificate then Dave??

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by howiedintheplace on Feb 4^th, 2006, 9:45pm

Well your surpost to take it to a registered fitter, they check it over & say it's O.K hopefully.
Trouble is most will not as they don't like too O.K stuff they have not done & others charge alot. They got you the b****rs >:(
You will have trouble getting insurance with out one.

It's worth it Baz, my Dad has 2 LPG cars now.

Him & his mate go fishing in a 2.0L Estate as it is alot cheaper on fuel than his mates 1.0 metro ;D
A tip is to get a big LPG tank & have it delivered as heating fuel.
Can't remember exactly the costs but it's less than 32p a litre.
Mega cheap motoring.

Just a thought Baz ask the guy for his old one, sometime they don't put the reg of the car on it just the kit name & fitter.

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Baz on Feb 4^th, 2006, 9:47pm

I suppose I could fit it and then take it somewhere on the prtence that I bought it like that without a cretificate! Did u fit urs urself?

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Highlander on Feb 4^th, 2006, 9:47pm

How do you get it out the big tank?

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Baz on Feb 4^th, 2006, 9:54pm

I know he has the certificate that came from autogas when they installed it

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by howiedintheplace on Feb 4^th, 2006, 9:54pm

Same way as you would fill a forklift, with a special electric pump.
Infact it is just the same as filling up at a garage just cheaper.

Get the tank & pumps from farm sales not ebay. Ebay costs alot as everyone is after them.
Farm sales well we bought it all for £50.

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by howiedintheplace on Feb 4^th, 2006, 9:55pm

Make sure you get the certificate Baz.

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by howiedintheplace on Feb 4^th, 2006, 10:04pm

Oh & one last thing Baz you will loose abit of power on gas.

A tip here is to remove the CATs & you will be almost @ the same power again.
An M.O.T tester will test the car on what ever it is running on @ the time of test.
On LPG a car will sail through the emissions, infact alot of testers didn't even bother testing them until this new computor system came in ;)

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Baz on Feb 4^th, 2006, 10:14pm

My mate is the one who does my MOT's and it is his garage wher I will be fitting most of the gas kit if it comes off! do I need to drill manifolds or anything to fit this thing? Cos I can get hold of spare ones and other bits before I start messing mine up!

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by scorpio_man on Feb 4^th, 2006, 10:32pm

hi barry

yes, both manifolds (if the 24v has 2 :-/) will need drilled and tapped.

why is it available? are you getting the other car as well? you could then just swap bit by bit.

btw, re the power drop. you can get the newer systems tuned to fix that problem, does use a wee bit more gas.
oh, use an induction kit. it helps. ;)
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/lpg2.3_2.htm

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by howiedintheplace on Feb 4^th, 2006, 10:38pm

Manifolds, We talking intake here?

Depends what system your buying Baz.

Take a look at these.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Folder%201/th_BasicLayout.jpg (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Folder%201/BasicLayout.jpg)http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Folder%201/th_lpgguide013.jpg (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Folder%201/lpgguide013.jpg)http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Folder%201/th_lpgguide017.jpg (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Folder%201/lpgguide017.jpg)http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Folder%201/th_lpgguide016.jpg (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Folder%201/lpgguide016.jpg)

Not sure why the last thumb don't show but X is another page ;)

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by howiedintheplace on Feb 4^th, 2006, 10:44pm

Yeah Scorpio man the new systems work very well infact alot of people will tell you that the engine will run much better on Gas than petrol.
Sure there is some LPG fitters on here who know more about this then I do ???

Power loss I think is to do with the high octane of LPG (100+) Basically it burns slower so a engine looses some of the power as it's set up for petrol that burns faster.
If you played about with the timing maybe you could get the power back?
Not 100% sure on this.
When you go back to petrol you will have a problem thow :(

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by scorpio_man on Feb 4^th, 2006, 10:58pm

yeh, the Sequential is the one to have, but my etagas is not bad.

i've had it 2 1/2 years now. cheap, cheap, cheap! ;D

this is it...http://www.tartariniauto.it/products.php

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by nuttyscorp on Feb 5^th, 2006, 12:01am

Dave,

do you run your twin turbo cossie on gas?

Russ

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Geoff_W on Feb 5^th, 2006, 12:57pm

Barry,

LPG and Euro Tunnel and Ferries could be a problem Eurotunnel is a no go if you have LPG,

You would need another Scorp for cruising the continent :(

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by scorpio_man on Feb 5^th, 2006, 3:18pm

hi there

ferries are ok, but as geoff has said no to the tunnel. not that i would use it {} i can't hold my breath for 26 miles!!! ;D

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Baz on Feb 5^th, 2006, 7:02pm

Dave,

thanks for the scans.

Geoff, I went to Disney on Euro Tunnel 2 years ago and it was awful. The car in front of me broke down so we had to wait ages until someone could come and get him off!!

I like to stay over at Dover Central Travelodge (did you know there is no Hilton in Dover? Outrageous!) and get the early Ferry (6:30 or so) get breakfast on the boat and come out in France all refreshed 1 1/2 hours later.

Plus for an extra fee we get priority loading and the ferry equivilant to 1st class where they serve free coffee and stuff and you don't get hordes of coach loads of Chavvy school kids from Saarrfffend on a weeks trip to Brittany!

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by martin_rowe on Feb 6^th, 2006, 9:27am

Hi Baz
you dont actually say what type of system it is, closed loop, multi point, or sequential, there is a differance.
sequential is deffinatly the way to go, still prety much depends on how it is fitted & set up though, with sequential you should not notice any power loss, in fact as siad you will probably find its smoother, LPG dose burn a little slower, and you need approx 10% more fuel for the same power output as petrol, stear clear of multi valve tanks (all the valves in one block) four hole tanks are better, there is room for a 90l tank in the boot of a scorp with room to get the spsre in / out, and have a propper filler installed, not one that needs an adapter screwing in to fill with, they are not LPGA cop11 complyant. you will need a CoC cert for your insurance. Most settings from a BOA will be ok, you may need to check / remove any fault codes though, just in case. Most LPG systems use dedicated kit for set up & diagnosis, make sure there is someone close if needs be.

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Thunderchild on Feb 6^th, 2006, 12:33pm

Hi Baz,

Only just picked up on this thread. I've done both of my Cossies now and have to say that LPG is the way to go. A word of warning though... if the system is not multipoint, and I suspect it won't be, you are likely to experience a number of problems including backfiring through the inlet manifold and the airbox. Not good when it blows the whole thing off!! I took a long time before I opted for LPG because of that and the people who supplied my system advised against the old mixer type because of the blow back problems and also the loss of power.

With the newer multipoint sequential systems there is no chance of blowback and no loss of power. I'm very happy with my system and would recommend it to anyone. Took me about 4 days to install the first time because I had a car and a whole host of bits and only a rough idea of how it should fit but the second time I had it down to 2 1/2 days and that included taking the manifolds back off because the darned t-piece became disconnected.

You definitely need the certificate for insurance and also to register the car as dual fuel (no London congestion charge). I was lucky in that the suppliers know me and were happy to certify my work.

Feel free to ask any questions and I'll try to answer them.

Thunderchild

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Baz on Feb 6^th, 2006, 6:59pm

Thanks guys. Don't know if this helps, but it is a picture of the system still in place.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/Bazunitec/b6_1_b.jpg

Baz

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by bobtheyop on Feb 6^th, 2006, 8:33pm

hello baz,

try and get hold of martin rowe,he knows his stuff about lpg conversions,the 24v may be better off with the newer injection system.

good luck,
bob.

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Thunderchild on Feb 6^th, 2006, 8:38pm

Hi Baz,

Looks like an old style multipoint system. Should be ok and won't give you the blowback problems that the mixer system gave. Martin might be able to give you better advice,

Good luck if you go for it... you're gonna love it!!

Thunderchild

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Baz on Feb 6^th, 2006, 8:43pm

Having spoken to the guy tonight, it appears that the system in question is the Romano (possibly the SVI) which I believe is the one Steve Congrave had fitted? (Steve if you are around!)

He is also going to sort out a spare "octopus" from the 24v so I don't have to worry about drilling mine to install the injectors! There ar 6 injectors and 2 vaporisors plus an ECU. The system was only installed in late 2003 so shouldn't be an early one I wouldn't have thought. Either way, I can always sell it on EBay again!!

Baz

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by howiedintheplace on Feb 6^th, 2006, 9:02pm

Buy it Baz it's a bargain.

I think you may have to get it tuned for your car by a specialist as it is more advanced than the one I thought you was buying.

No I don't run LPG on a turbo engine but I am told they run very well on it due to the high octane.
You can get systems that increase the gas on boost so not a problem.

Hmmm preformance of a supercar but as cheap to run as a 2.0L Mondeo ;D Maybe the next project ;)

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Baz on Feb 6^th, 2006, 9:30pm

I have just added a picture off the main site of the install to steve Congraves car and if you look at the vaporisor (the other one is out of shot on this side of the engine bay) they look to be the same as do the filters. Just to the left of the vaporisor on the granada shot, you can see the solenoid and when you compare it to the one on steves, it again looks the same. As I said, I can always get rid on Ebay if it isn't quite what I want!

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/Bazunitec/b6_1_b.jpghttp://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/finalinstall.jpg
Thanks

baz

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by martin_rowe on Feb 7^th, 2006, 8:54am

if its running an emulator then it cant be sequential, sequential systems use the petrol injector triggers to fire the lpg injectors at the right time.

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Baz on Feb 7^th, 2006, 9:23am

Thanks Martin. I guess I will know more when I take it off and get some photos sorted!
Going either later today or tomorrow

Baz

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Danny_R on Feb 7^th, 2006, 12:59pm

So what's the deal with LPG in England now? I'm surprised Mr. Prescott hasn't gotten his claws into it yet and raised taxes on it!!!

Danny_R

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Highlander on Feb 7^th, 2006, 3:48pm

He'll do it the minute Baz gets his installed ;)

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by howiedintheplace on Feb 7^th, 2006, 6:46pm

Baz I saw that kit on ebay a few days ago, I wish I had bought it now. ;D
Talk about under selling.

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Octavian_P on Feb 7^th, 2006, 8:18pm

Hello !

I'm a bit off-topic but maybe once and for all i'll get my answer to a big question of my life.

Does LPG wear the engine faster ? I heard thousands of storyes like, LPG burns hotter, and it's dry so it will decrease the heads lubrication and so on. I have read somewhere in this thred about seqential LPG injection, never heard of it. Could be that the classical system really damages the engine, and the new system keeps it in good shape ? Will a old and agressed engine will cope with LPG, would it consume oil ? LPG is like a myth, everyoane has a story about how good / bad it is.

Cheers

PS: Baz how about a long vacation trip now ;D

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Highlander on Feb 7^th, 2006, 8:42pm

I remember someone on here mentioning high milage vehicles (taxis I think) needed heads replaced after a long while using LPG

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Baz on Feb 8^th, 2006, 12:17am

OK, having removed the system today, I can say that it is the same as the system fitted to steve congraves former scorpio as shown here:

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/svilpg.htm

Even the tank is the same but I doubt I will go to the trouble of cutting the spare wheel well to drop the tank by 2 "!!
The system was installed in November 2003 and as the car has been off the road since at least last June, has been used for less than 18 months. It is in immaculate condition with only a bit of the alloy dust that occurs on aluminium parts. All the wiring looms are spotless and as the injector loom merely plugs onto the injectors and the respective plugs, it is a doddle to fit. Many photos and diagrams/drawings have been made too! I want to get in touch with Steve now to see if he has any paperwork I can get copies of.!

Will stick some photos on soon, but for 200 quid it appears to be a good buy!

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by martin_rowe on Feb 8^th, 2006, 9:34am

Any vehicle equiped to run unleaded fuel will have no problems on LPG, as with all things technology moves on, sequential vapour injection is the latest generation of kits, as with the petrol systems, emissions have got less, the quality of the kit & the regulations have also moved with the times.
all engines will experiance some valve recession in the long run no matter what fuel is used, LPG is cleaner running than petrol, your engine oil will stay cleaner also. Its the best of both worlds.

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by howiedintheplace on Feb 10^th, 2006, 8:45am

Yeah it's one of them scary stories people quote to try & convince them selves LPG is a bad idea ;D

If done proper on a modern engine everything is better. Including your bank balance ;D

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by scorpio_man on Feb 10^th, 2006, 10:40am

hi there

you can get this stuff for use on really early cars (4 star petrol, etc) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Autogas-LPG-Flashlube-valve-Saver-1-litre-refill_W0QQitemZ8035281232QQcategoryZ43120QQcmdZViewItem

not needed on newer cars, though.

hth

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Baz on Feb 10^th, 2006, 11:42am

anyone have a source for wiring diagrams for this system? I was hoping steve might pop in but no joy yet!!

Baz

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by scorpio_man on Feb 10^th, 2006, 11:54am

hi barry

here's the a web addy for them http://www.autogasworldwide.co.uk/consumer/index.htm

see if they'll post a copy out to you (maybe if you take it back for them to check it).

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by martin_rowe on Feb 11^th, 2006, 9:18am

barry
the wiring colours are fairly standard, let me know what you have, I will let you know.

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by Baz on Feb 11^th, 2006, 11:13am

OK Martin, this is what I have

red black tracer - battery 12v +ve
black - battery 12v -ve

red switched 12v +ve

blue - solenoid emulator +ve
orange - temp sensor reducer
dark blue yellow stripe - throttle potensionomter
light blue yellow stripe injector neg no.1
purple + grey o2 sensor bank 1 cut wire purp to sensor - grey to ecu
purple black stripe grey black stripe bank 2

I know you have dealings with these things Martin so any diagrams you have and can send to me would be great. I have the Romano software and am currently looking for the LPG lead to connect it to the ECU

Thanks

Baz

Title: Re: LPG System from a BOA engine to a BOB ca
Post by martin_rowe on Feb 12^th, 2006, 12:37pm

blue wire is + feed to front & rear gas valves, & emulator. green & white wires may needjoining to go to green wire on guage sender. brown wire is engine speed, get at coil pack together with ign feed (red). recomend emulator wiring is hard wired, 24v injector wiring is inverted, pus not much room for another set of plugs, keep the wires in pairs, emulator wire with trace goes back to car ECU, with petrol injector lug off, ign on connect emulator goes to the signal wire, not + wire, takes a bit longer but better in the long run. for LPGA complyance all wiring neds to be soldered, push on terminals need to be soldered to wires also, no crimping. good luck.