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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> Mirror probs continued
        
(Message started by: cossieguy on Sep 14^th, 2006, 10:46am)

Title: Mirror probs continued
Post by cossieguy on Sep 14^th, 2006, 10:46am

Right have changed my passenger mirror and still have the same problem,
1. Mirror dips all the way to floor when in reverse
2. Doesn't return to original starting point when put back in drive
3. When unlocking the car mirror points fully upwards
4. Rarely the mirror points all the way down and wont come up.
My question is where does the control signals for the mirror come from is it the passenger door module or the drivers side module? Or do the two work together?
Any help would be great.
PS when moving mirror normally its fine, it seems to be its memory and reversing signals that are screwed up.

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by Highlander on Sep 14^th, 2006, 11:56am

I'm interested in this one too, I have one doing the same, Swapped it for a known good mirror yesterday and still drops, I assume its not the mirrors but the control/module?

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by bootiful-scorpios on Sep 14^th, 2006, 5:55pm

can they be reset ? and are they connected to the gear box so then it knows from that when car is in reverse ?

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by Tompion on Sep 14^th, 2006, 6:09pm

on 09/14/06 at 10:46:26, cossieguy wrote:

3. When unlocking the car mirror points fully upwards

Just wondered if the remote is programmed to the seat & whether you've saved the the seat setting after altering the mirror?

Dave

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by TiberiuS on Sep 14^th, 2006, 6:12pm

Yes, the mirror is connected to the gearbox, or at least the control module is connected somewhere in the reversing lamp circuit; when my reverse switch packed up both the lamps and the dipping mirror died.

The door mirror motor is no way intelligent, even if part of it was on the rambo it wouldn't have gremlins like what you describe. A long shot may be to check the multi-connector on the door post; other than that, check the connections to the module and try another module ;)

@ Dave: True, but it still doesn't explain why it doesn't return after reversing :)

Regards, Bruce.

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by Tompion on Sep 14^th, 2006, 6:30pm

on 09/14/06 at 18:12:35, TiberiuS wrote:

@ Dave: True, but it still doesn't explain why it doesn't return after reversing :)
Regards, Bruce.

Indeed, but I was only answering point 3 ;)

Dave

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by cossieguy on Sep 15^th, 2006, 6:58am

Thanks for the input Dave and Bruce, i'll try and clarify a few things to help with diagnosis:
1, Have reset the memory for the seats/mirrors loadsa times. Memory function appears to be working on everything apart from passenger mirror (Which does work but very rarely).

2, As mirror does dip in reverse(Though too far) the gear box signal must be getting to the mirror(It just doesn't know when to stop dipping)

3, As in essence all the signals are getting to the mirror then wiring should be ok.

4, Which leaves the control modules, the signals look like they're being changed/altered by either of the modules.

I hate this sort of fault! Everything works in essence, the mirror moves,it dips when in reverse(Though too far). It trys to go back to original position after dipping but doesn't get there.

Being an electronics technician
:-[ this sounds a bit like a bad earth, which is just about the most awkward thing to find >:(

Highlander, w'ell have to keep each other posted on this one, It might make sense to attack this from two different angles. I've spoken to Shaun on here about getting the modules, if you can check the wiring i'll change the modules rather than us both spending money to get to the fault ;)

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by Tompion on Sep 15^th, 2006, 12:09pm

Hi

Thought I read on the mailing list that the memory for the mirror is in the seat module not the door modules?

Can’t imagine this is of help, but if you put it in reverse and the mirror dips then press & hold the seat memory button, does the mirror return to the normal position?
Mine does.

Dave

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by cossieguy on Sep 15^th, 2006, 3:55pm

Dave, i'm almost convinced this is a memory fault! If i set the memory for my positions then move the drivers seat and both mirrors, lock the car then unlock it this happens:
1. drivers seat moves back to stored position
2. drivers mirror moves back to stored position
3. passenger mirror does nothing.
As the mirror operates correctly off rotary movement switch, and it dips in reverse(though too far) the mirror is working!
The memory function isn't working so that the "system" doesn't know what position the mirror is in.
Question now is what could cause the car not to know what position the passenger mirror is at?

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by Snoopy on Sep 15^th, 2006, 8:00pm

OLD age = LOSS OF SHORT TERM MEMORY ... I know }{

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by cossieguy on Sep 15^th, 2006, 8:12pm

Dave, do you mean me or the car ;)

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by hellblue on Sep 15^th, 2006, 9:03pm

Had a look at wiring,the memory sets into the drivers side module but it would seem this one tells the pass. side one what to do,so it looks like its a 50/50 job. But it also shows a feed to the DLC so it may show up a code if you can scan it !!

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by TiberiuS on Sep 15^th, 2006, 9:15pm

The passenger side mirror control module? I had my passenger door to bits the other week and I'm pretty sure it's lurking in there somewhere :)

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by cossieguy on Sep 16^th, 2006, 6:52am

on 09/15/06 at 21:15:30, TiberiuS wrote:

The passenger side mirror control module? I had my passenger door to bits the other week and I'm pretty sure it's lurking in there somewhere :)

Saw it,undid it, dropped it down inside of door }{ }{ When changing pass mirror. So know how to change it!

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by cossieguy on Oct 4^th, 2006, 1:58pm

Right, have changed the passenger and drivers control modules today. The problem is still the same! Now really suspect the memory of that mirror. i.e when you input the seats and mirrors into the memory i think the passenger one isn't being logged so when you go into reverse or unlock the car it doesn't know where to go so just goes as low as it can. Where does the signal go to when you input the memory positions?(Through the 3 way memory switch).

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by Tompion on Oct 4^th, 2006, 4:02pm

Hi

Have you checked the connections to the seat module, I'm sure I've read that's where the position is stored.

Dave

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by TiberiuS on Oct 4^th, 2006, 5:12pm

Sorry mate, would've bet my life on it being one of the door modules :-[

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by cossieguy on Oct 4^th, 2006, 6:01pm

on 10/04/06 at 16:02:28, Tompion wrote:

Have you checked the connections to the seat module, I'm sure I've read that's where the position is stored.

Where does the seat module reside? If that's where the input from the memory switch goes should be easy to at least test the continuity of that cable.

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by solarpanel on Oct 4^th, 2006, 6:13pm

under the seat..........

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by cossieguy on Oct 4^th, 2006, 8:49pm

on 10/04/06 at 18:13:06, solarpanel wrote:

under the seat..........

Cheers Doug :-[ Guess i left myself open for that ;)
Do you agree that's the next place to try? There's about 3 or 4 of us on here with this same fault so would be nice to trace and fix it.
Guy.

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by cossieguy on Oct 5^th, 2006, 8:59am

Right, have found and removed the seat module however there isn't enough slack to remove the 3 plugs on the back. The module wont come far enough forward ??? Looks like Ford didn't make the cables long enough.

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by Simmo on Oct 5^th, 2006, 4:42pm

Have you read This (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/electrical/intbasic/MPlexSeatMod.pdf). If not does it help?.

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by cossieguy on Oct 5^th, 2006, 5:26pm

Yes Simmo i read that, have released the module but as i said the cables wont allow the module to come forward enough to undo them. It's too wet at the moment but will give it another go later. Does anyone know about this moduule is it purely a wiring throughput and if so where does the memory get stored? Saw a little unit above it attached to chair frame that had a sticker on it that said memory. Would i need to start looking at this if the module doesn't cure the fault?
Cheers Guy.

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by freddieboy on Oct 6^th, 2006, 12:42am

I dont think that the passenger mirror is controlled in any way by the memory. My memory setting only activates the front seat pre sets and the drivers door mirror. The passenger mirror is activated by reverse gear selection only.

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by cossieguy on Oct 6^th, 2006, 9:23am

on 10/06/06 at 00:42:05, freddieboy wrote:

That being the case what the hell tells the mirror to dip in reverse? Also how far does it know to dip? ie you could have the mirror set really high or in the middle does it dip to the same lower position in either case and most importantly does it go back to the original position ie really high when in drive/park? Not having a working one or even seen one work correctly i apologise but i need to understand how this dipping works? If it returns to its original position wherever that is, it would imply the original position is stored somewhere! How else would it know where to go back to?
Guy.
PS Just read manual and both mirrors should be stored in memory, my passenger one has no memory functions at all ie move it, lock and unlock the car, it doesn't move.
Drivers seat and drivers mirror both move!

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by freddieboy on Oct 6^th, 2006, 9:51am

Perhaps the mirror unit is supposed to be controlled by the pre set system, and the dipping mechanism travel is not adjustable in itself.

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by cossieguy on Oct 6^th, 2006, 10:10am

Really need the wise Sages on this forum to point me in the direction of any wiring diagrams for the memory functions/seats. Need to sort this it's driving me nuts trying to figure it out! Could someone with a serviceable dipping passenger mirror do some checks for me.
1. Does it dip to the same position no matter where the mirror was to start with?
2. Does it return to the original starting position no matter where that was?
3. Does passenger mirror move to stored position when moved and the car is locked then unlocked?
Cheers Guy.

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by Snoopy on Oct 6^th, 2006, 12:55pm

TRY HERE (http://www.carsoft.ru/avtorepair/sierra/mirrors3.pdf)
might help

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by cossieguy on Oct 6^th, 2006, 4:11pm

Cheers Snoopy, as my mirror dips on reverse and tries to go back up/left/right(All signals present) i'm really starting to suspect the memory input switch signal for the passenger mirror is being lost somewhere after you press long white bar and switches 1 to 3. Alas the diagram doesn't show where the passenger position is stored. This is getting very complicated for such a simple fault. My questions from previous post still need answering to help me understand mirror functions.
According to the diagram the module under drivers seat has nowt to do with mirrors unless this is where the seat/mirror positions are stored?
Thanks, Guy.

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by Dave2302 on Oct 6^th, 2006, 4:17pm

Hi there, Right, mine is working perfectly:-

1) When unlocking the car no matter where you leave the passenger mirror the memory resets it to your preset position.

2) Wherever you leave the mirror when it receives the reverse command from PRND21 switch it will only dip for about 3 seconds, and will return for about 3 seconds. The higher you start with the mirror the higher the dipped position after selecting reverse. If you select reverse and when its dipped momentarily deselect reverse then select it again it will dip down further because it hasn't fully returned !!

3) If you only do one reverse engagement and then allow it to return it will always return from whence it started! However as per above you can confuse it by briefly deselecting reverse and then re selecting it quickly, in this instance it will only return for three seconds so it ends up lower !!

From this it seems obvious that the reverse dipping does not take any reference from the memory, it merely runs the motor up / down for a preset time.
Its my bet that this dipping function is controlled by the central timer module. Do your interior lights delays work properly, including from keyfob?

Hope this helps Regards Dave

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by cossieguy on Oct 6^th, 2006, 4:26pm

Cheers Dave that helps, yes all my other timings appear ok but the dipping goes on longer than 3 seconds nearer 5(Hence all the way to floor!) and it returns for about 3-4 (Hence it never gets back to where it started).
Also the passenger mirror doesn't return to its memory point when unlocking car if it's moved(Question1)It will move left/right a little and down but not up! Weird.
Guy.

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by Dave2302 on Oct 6^th, 2006, 4:35pm

Ok, I only counted my seconds in my head so if you timed yours 5 could well be correct. Its possible you just have a high resistance in the up circuit to the mirror from what you said in your last post, as it doesnt return as far when going up and also as it doesnt want to go up when using the memory, may be worth a look for a "green" multiplug connector before changing any more modules !! Regards Dave.

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by TiberiuS on Oct 6^th, 2006, 4:55pm

My pass mirror works the same as Dave's, not sure about if I drop it in/our of reverse quickly but it only dips about 3 seconds and it always resets itself if I move it around and then turn on the ignition.

I'll have a nosey around tonight and see what I can find to help you, haven't touched this part much on the Scorpio but have done a lot to the Mondeo and a few others, some have a memory function...

Bruce.

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by cossieguy on Oct 6^th, 2006, 9:21pm

on 10/06/06 at 16:35:02, Dave2302 wrote:

may be worth a look for a "green" multiplug connector before changing any more modules !! Regards Dave.

Cheers Dave, this green multiplug is it behind passenger doorcard? Near to the two mirror plugs (Black and white ones)?
Cheers, Guy.

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by TiberiuS on Oct 6^th, 2006, 9:30pm

I think he means green as in verdigris, corrosion ;)

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by cossieguy on Oct 6^th, 2006, 9:39pm

on 10/06/06 at 21:30:30, TiberiuS wrote:

I think he means green as in verdigris, corrosion ;)

Long day=slow on the take up :-[

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by cossieguy on Oct 7^th, 2006, 10:14am

Have now replaced the seat module with one i've borrowed off Solarpanel. No change to mirror fault, now really running out of avenues to go down!
Have now replaced:
1, mirror
2, both door modules
3, seat module
HELP!
Starting tosuspect the mirror again maybe the one i got was broken, however all the functions work,it's just the mirror is reluctant to raise and to eager to drop!

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by Highlander on Oct 7^th, 2006, 10:44am

Hi Guy, if thats the mirror you got from me it was checked and working ok before I took it off.

I put another good mirror on my car with the same symtoms as yours and it still drops, I dont think its the mirrors.

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by cossieguy on Oct 7^th, 2006, 11:18am

Wasn't trying to imply anything! Just really running out of ideas on this one. Does you passenger mirror display all the symptoms mine has got?

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by Highlander on Oct 7^th, 2006, 2:33pm

Yep just the same, drops everytime I switch the ignition off or reverse and wont come up till i do it with the mirror control.

Put a known working mirror on from another car and it does the very same, dont think its a mirror prob.

Mines on a 96 Diesel estate manual

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by pedropedro on Oct 7^th, 2006, 3:23pm

not easy this fault ....for what its worth can i add something

firstly you need to understand how the mirrors with memory know their positions and how they are restored .

In the mirror units WITH memory potentiometers on the motor shafts move, when the mirror moves, and the voltage on the wiper of those pots. is stored via wires grey/red or white/red ( vertical and horizontal positions) into memory in the door module unit .

when asking to restore, the motors are driven until the voltage on the wipers matches the pre set voltage in memory .when those match the motors stop

if youve changed the driver door module the only thing it can be is :-

1/ the wiring between the mirror pots and the memory module.You will have to buzz them through somehow or

2/ your pass mirror unit doesnt have the memory facility ie doesnt have the potentiometers...seems it is optional .has the pass one ever worked ??

would need to open to establish. I would then go to the wipers of the pots and see that there was a varying voltage when the mirrors were moved.

both pots are commoned through an earth.. COULD be very likely that has been lost ...thats the only thing assuming you have the memory mirrors that affects both memory sides... thats a black wire .. good luck ...john

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by cossieguy on Oct 7^th, 2006, 3:58pm

John you're a star :) Now have something else to get my teeth into. Will post and let you know the outcome.
Thanks, Guy.

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by pedropedro on Oct 7^th, 2006, 4:17pm

Guy

taking to next stage i would try and locate the wires in the mirror that do the memory bit......there should be volts across the pots which are in parallel thats yellow and blk(earth) i would guess 12v but it may be 5v...

whatever the volts if there is something there, then some level will get back to the door module

my money, assuming they are memory mirrors, since both horiz and vert have gone is that there wont be volts across them ....but just have to be logical and go one step at a time...john

Title: Re: Mirror probs continued
Post by TiberiuS on Oct 7^th, 2006, 4:37pm

I agree with John, check the condition of the loom to that mirror too.

Remembering now, when my car got vandalised last year the driver's mirror got ripped off than the loom damaged, it acted up strange until I repaired the loom.

Bruce.