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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> autobox
        
(Message started by: pat on Oct 18^th, 2006, 8:03pm)

Title: autobox
Post by pat on Oct 18^th, 2006, 8:03pm

Hello again guys and Gals. I have a similar problem to Newbie but with a twist. Mrs Pat has a 2.9 auto P reg. Said box drinks fluid - at least half a litre per week. At the same time, engine oil level increases (no, don't laugh - when I last changed it, there was about half a gallon too much in!) Filled it exactly to mark - now way up again. At proper mark, no white smoke. When level up, puff of white smoke at start up. God knows how but fluid does seem to be transferring. There are no huge patches of oil appearing under car when parked so presumably no serious leaks. Nice to be back - be even nicer if somebody can throw any light on it. Thanks folks

Title: Re: autobox
Post by hellblue on Oct 18^th, 2006, 8:40pm

gearbox & engine oil dont go near each other?? if the gearbox is dropping oil it cant get into the engine,is the under side of the car wet with oil??did it have enough oil in it?.If the engine oils going up it can only be fuel or water if its water it will be like a milk shake!or there was to much in it? any more info??

Title: Re: autobox
Post by pat on Oct 19^th, 2006, 1:30pm

hi there. thanks for reply. thanks for confirming that there is no way that fluid could transfer. the two things must be coincidental. your idea about fuel is an interesting one although the engine oil did not look thin enough to have that amount of fuel in it.. it is definitely not water - dipstick is clean, no emulsion. there is a certain amount of oil on underside but I would have expected to see more. I can only think it is only leaking on the move and getting thrown clear. Re-enough oil in it. presume you mean box. yes, until it starts losing drive then I know it's down again. By the way, fluid is clean - no burnt bits.

Title: Re: autobox
Post by taliban on Oct 19^th, 2006, 1:53pm

with the engine oil i've noticed with my TD that the car has to stand for at least 30 mins before checking; could be because of the large amount of oil, takes a long time to settle

Title: Re: autobox
Post by pat on Oct 20^th, 2006, 1:32pm

good point. however, on last change, oil was way in excess of what should have been in so it is not just dipstick reading. put over half a litre in box yesterday- car did a 30 mile round trip, I took it out this morning and drive is slipping again so it needs another top up! consumption does seem to depend on mileage so I still think it must be chucking it out when under way rather than leaking at rest. at least it keeps my ATF supplier solvent.....

Title: Re: autobox
Post by Highlander on Oct 20^th, 2006, 2:40pm

Check the pipes from the autbox to the oil cooler, they are known to corrode very badly.

How.where are you topping up the autobox?

Title: Re: autobox
Post by pat on Oct 20^th, 2006, 4:26pm

thanks - will check pipes over weekend(have already checked radiator end - ok there). topping box up through dipstick tube behind engine.

Title: Re: autobox
Post by mr._floppy on Oct 20^th, 2006, 5:27pm

I don't know about the V6 but on the 4pot the engine coolant main radiator also acts as a pre-warmer for the autobox auto box fluid .

Pipes from the autobox enter and leave the radiator , so, if the V6 has the same set up, there is a chance that the ATF is mixing with your coolant. Although it still doesn't explain your rise in engine oil level.

Strange one indeed.

Title: Re: autobox
Post by pat on Oct 22^nd, 2006, 1:09pm

Another good idea. Have checked but nothing in water. Thanks anyway. Now then, about the misfire on my 2.0 DOHC estate - only joking, the electrician is coming tomorrow, Probably the loom or coil.

Title: Re: autobox
Post by Snoopy on Oct 22^nd, 2006, 4:46pm

Mosty likely culprit is the oli cooler pipes as previously mentioned seeTHIS (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/coolerpipes.htm) for guidance. Some people have cut back to good section and used Hydraulic pipe to replace but genuine FMD ones are not too expensive

Title: Re: autobox
Post by Dave2302 on Oct 24^th, 2006, 9:20am

Hi,

If there is no visible signs of leaks on your autobox the problem will be the vacuum modulator on the side of the box. ( I'm assuming your car is a 12v or very very early 24v). This could also allow fluid to enter your engine through the vacuum / breather circuits. Do not keep allowing it to run so low that it loses drive or you will burn out the clutches in short order !!. Modulators are around 20 Quid and half hour to fit ! Hope this helps,

Regards Dave

Title: Re: autobox
Post by jonnycab on Oct 24^th, 2006, 10:44am

When the engine oil was last changed, are you sure all the old oil drained out properly.
Also did you do it yourself?....some cheap oil change places won't bother changing the filter, & that can leave half a litre still in it. :)

Title: Re: autobox
Post by pat on Oct 27^th, 2006, 12:28pm

Hi folks sorry for delay in replying. wife on crutches due to accident at home so car on hold.
1) Jonnycab. yes, changed oil myself. didn't change filter that time but it was still well overfull even without whatever was in filter case.
2) Dave 2302. That's an interesting one. If that is feasible it is certainly worth a try for the sake of £20 or whatever. Before I go ahead, does anyone agree or disagree?
Many thanks to you both and everyone who has taken the trouble to help. I will report back when I am excused invalid care and can get back to the proper work(clout - ouch!). Regards, Pat

Title: Re: autobox
Post by Dave2302 on Oct 27^th, 2006, 5:33pm

Pat,

I am a retired Auto Gearbox specialist. Of course as I said earlier, this only applies to non Electronic gearboxes, which were only fitted to 12v and very early 24v Scorpios.

Have seen it a thousand times. Just be sure not to drop the pin when you remove the old modulator and equally locate the pin properly when you put the new mod. in. ( I always put a blob of vaseline on the end of the pin then locate it in the new modulator), also lubricate the O Ring in the new mod. and push the whole shebang into the gearbox case, being sure to keep it square as you do it, cos the free end of the pin has to locate into the valve in the gearbox casing.

Regards Dave

Title: Re: autobox
Post by pat on Oct 29^th, 2006, 7:40pm

Hi Dave. Many thanks for your advice which is greatly appreciated. Yes- the car is a V6 2.9 12v. P reg. and the box is the one without the S (Sport?) switch. If I had known your previous occupation, I would have accepted your initial suggestion without question. Sorry! Regards , Pat

Title: Re: autobox
Post by howiedintheplace on Oct 29^th, 2006, 9:52pm

I have seen something like this before on a Granada.

There is 2 pipes from the auto, one is a vacuum as Dave says the other is a breather.

If some idiot connects both pipes to the vacuum it sucks the oil out of the auto but you do get some smoke if this happens as the engine burns most of it ;D

Title: Re: autobox
Post by Dave2302 on Oct 30^th, 2006, 4:39pm

Hi Guys,

Yeah Dave (Howie) is right I've seen that happen too, but in this case the Vacuum Modulator that I'm on about is the canister just above the sump joint about halfway along the auto box on the drivers side.

This unit has a single pipe going to it and it has a diaphragm inside it which together with a spring opens and closes a valve which sits in the gearbox casing and controls the pressure on the back of the shift valves, (modulation pressure). This makes the shifts later or earlier and firmer/ softer depending on engine vacuum (Load).

The later and fully electronic cars dont have a Modulator because engine management systems control this by sensing throttle position against RPM to determine load and then the ecu adjusts the Line pressure to alter shift feel and the shift solenoid switching points to control the road speed at which the Transmission shifts. IMHO the older vacuum boxes were a lot sweeter and less clinical about there shifts than the new electronic ones. That having been said I reckon the new ones have more to offer, add the right ecu and loom and a steering wheel with paddles.........woo hoo clutchless 5 / 6 speed manual with engine braking !!!!

Anyhow, sorry to digress, but I reckon it's the diaphragm inside your Modulator that is split, then the oil goes up the vacuum pipe and gets burned by the engine. Depending on the exact pipe routing on your engine it is possible for the oil in the vacuum pipe to be draining into your crankcase via the breather circuits. It usually only shows visible exhaust smoke after descending an incline then accelerating away.

Regards Dave

Title: Re: autobox
Post by howiedintheplace on Oct 30^th, 2006, 10:18pm

Dave 2302 knows far more about this than most, I would follow his advice ;)

Title: Re: autobox
Post by pat on Nov 2^nd, 2006, 1:54pm

Hi again guys. You all really are the business. your knowledge is amazing. Thanks for describing the modulator - now I know what I am looking for! Fully intend to replace and will let you know how I get on. PS smoke is on start up. Put (another) litre of fluid in box yesterday - smoke much worse when started up today. Will drain engine at weekend and refill to correct level. It certainly was the problem last time. Thanks again. kind regards,Pat

Title: Re: autobox
Post by pat on Nov 2^nd, 2006, 1:57pm

Dave2302. Sorry , forgot to ask. Is the modulator a Ford part? If not , where do I get one from? Thanks,Pat.

Title: Re: autobox
Post by Dave2302 on Nov 2^nd, 2006, 4:32pm

Hi Pat,

Yes its easiest to get the modulator from Fords. I can get pattern ones, from auto box parts suppliers, but they aren't a lot cheaper, especially once we have posted them a couple of times. Also there are several different types, so easiest for you to see FMD with your reg number and he'll give you the right part.

Regards Dave

Title: Re: autobox
Post by pat on Nov 5^th, 2006, 7:55pm

Hi Dave. Thanks for info. Smoke all day yesterday - checked it today and about 3/4 of a gallon overfull again. It is pretty clear now that that is certainly the problem. No smell of fuel and no sign of water. Will be back in touch when part fitted. Regards Pat

Title: Re: autobox
Post by Dave2302 on Nov 6^th, 2006, 8:52pm

Hi Pat,

Good Luck with it then, await to hear. :)

Regards

Title: Re: autobox
Post by pat on Nov 13^th, 2006, 1:11pm

Hi Dave 2302. Have finally managed to get underneath and find modulator(Ford call it a throttle valve). However I am puzzled about half hour fitting time. G/box is so close to transmission tunnel, I can see no way of getting at it- certainly without dropping box(if that is possible). Help! Thanks, Pat.

Title: Re: autobox
Post by Dave2302 on Nov 14^th, 2006, 9:34am

Hi Pat,

Yes its close !

When you have done one it is a doddle, it has one 10 mm bolt holding a little bracket, I use a 1/4 drive with short extension. This just keeps the modulator pressed into the gearbox casing. Pull off the vacuum pipe, undo the bolt and bracket and just give it a twist and out it comes.
A bowl is useful as some oil will run out.

But as it's your first it may be easier to undo the gearbox rear mount from the floorpan, release the exhaust rubbers, then lower it a bit so you can see what your doing.

Because I've done loads of them I tend to do it by feel !!

Remember not to lose the pin, and grease it in when you come to reassembling it all.

Regards

Title: Re: autobox
Post by pat on Nov 16^th, 2006, 6:51pm

Cheers Dave - you're a star! Thanks again, Pat

Title: Re: autobox
Post by pat on Dec 4^th, 2006, 3:46pm

hi folks. Part fitted. Yes there was fluid in vacuum pipe. Now no smoke. Gear changing is a dream(I didn't realise there was anything wrong with it before!) Will have to give it a few days to see if fluid transfer is cured and will report back with result. By the way, as Dave2302 said, it can be done with the box in place but it is difficult to get the bolt back in as the clip spins round and space is very confined.
Tip:- Put the bolt in the clip first and secure it from the back with a small O ring(or laggy band). Feed the clip into the valve and bingo!

Title: Re: autobox
Post by Dave2302 on Dec 6^th, 2006, 6:22pm

;D

Well done, and at least you've cured the gearbox fluid consumption. Hopefully there will be no increase in your engine oil level now either, let us know when you have run it a while.

Cheers

Title: Re: autobox
Post by pat on Dec 13^th, 2006, 3:19pm

Hi again folks. Well, I think it's fairly safe to say box is fixed. Still haven't put any more oil in it which is a record. Haven't had chance to change engine oil yet to do a proper check but if g/box isn't losing it, i guess engine can't be gaining it. First of all a big thank you to everyone who took the time to post suggestions and solutions- very much appreciated.
Dave2302:- What can I say mate? You hit the nail on the head. A special thank you for that and the instructions for doing the job. Hope I can return the favour in some way one day! Cheers everybody.

Title: Re: autobox
Post by Dave2302 on Dec 13^th, 2006, 7:56pm

Glad you got it sorted Pat ;)