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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> Changing ring gear.
        
(Message started by: cossieguy on Oct 20^th, 2006, 11:04am)

Title: Changing ring gear.
Post by cossieguy on Oct 20^th, 2006, 11:04am

My car is very noisy on start up,have changed the starter motor but still noisy. Was told by mechanic that the ring gear had wear in its teeth. I know nothing about this ring gear but believe it's attached/part of the fly wheel? My question is can you easily/cheaply replace the ring gear or is it as always a nightmare?

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by howiedintheplace on Oct 20^th, 2006, 11:15am

24V Cossie I assume.

A gear box out job.

It's bolted to the crank & the torque converter is bolted to the other side.

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by cossieguy on Oct 20^th, 2006, 11:20am

Cheers Dave, once the gear box is out,i assume it's straight forward to do, any idea how much to replace the ring gear itself? Might have to wait till i've gotta good reason to drop the box!

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by cossieguy on Oct 20^th, 2006, 12:00pm

Just a quickie is the ring gear also known as engine drive plate?

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by Highlander on Oct 20^th, 2006, 2:49pm

Its not the timing chain rattling maybe?

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by cossieguy on Oct 20^th, 2006, 3:20pm

on 10/20/06 at 14:49:29, Highlander wrote:

Its not the timing chain rattling maybe?

No, it's as the engine cranks it is very noisy,once engine has started it's as quiet as a mouse. The mechanic that changed the starter motor said the teeth on the ring gear had wear on them. Would this cause a noisy start? i assume the starter
uses these teeth to crank the engine.

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by Highlander on Oct 20^th, 2006, 3:59pm

Timing chains turn while the engine cranks though ;)

If you put press the throttle right down so the engine wont fire does it do it then?

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by cossieguy on Oct 20^th, 2006, 4:22pm

on 10/20/06 at 15:59:09, Highlander wrote:

Timing chains turn while the engine cranks though ;)

If you put press the throttle right down so the engine wont fire does it do it then?

I pressed the throttle down fully, turned her over heard the noisy bit then straight away engine started, revved to the max!!!

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by cossieguy on Oct 20^th, 2006, 4:25pm

Just to assist, the noise is almost what i'd call a grinding noise, lasts about 1 second if that, engine starts no problems. It's not just me, everyone who hears it for the first time notices it straight away and comments on it. The chains have been done ie tensioners sorted, not by me but previous owner.

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by Highlander on Oct 20^th, 2006, 6:35pm

its not supposed to do that ;D
If throttle is wide open it shouldn't fire up.

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by harry.m1byt on Oct 20^th, 2006, 7:31pm

on 10/20/06 at 11:04:17, cossieguy wrote:

Wear on the motor pinion or ring gear is rare these days due to them all being pre-engaged types. Damage on one, will cause damage to the other.

The ring gear is a thin steel ring with teeth around its outer edge to match the starter. Changing it would involve clutch or engine out to gain access to the flywheel. The ring gear is shunk onto the outer lip of the flywheel.

Usual removal method is to split the ring by use of a large hammer and chisel. Fitting a new one is a matter of heating the ring in an oven to expand it and shrinking the flywheel by freezing it, which allows it to drop in place -probably easier/cheaper to just get one from the scrap yard.

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by cossieguy on Oct 20^th, 2006, 9:46pm

Cheers Harry, great explanation ;)
So you think it unlikely it's the ring gear, the starter motor I put on was a secondhand one, is it still possible it needs a new starter motor? Strange though that both would cause the same loud starting problem ???

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by cossie_al on Oct 20^th, 2006, 10:16pm

Guy,
If you remove the starter motor and have a look at the gear on it it sould be obvious if it is damaged or worn.
If it was in good condition before it was fitted and now is damaged chances are as Harry says the ring gear is damaged and has caused damage to the starter motor.
You can normaly tell if the ring gear is damaged by looking in the hole that the starter gear goes through.
If you cant get your head near enough to see through the hole try taking a few pics on a digital camera.
Beware of prodding your finger in the hole I have seen worn ring gears with burrs on like razors.

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by cossieguy on Oct 20^th, 2006, 10:23pm

Cheers Al, i haven't removed the starter myself i assume it's easier with the car raised as it's so low in engine bay. Any tips or is it just a case of removing electrical connections then unbolting. Anyone like to give a guesstimate how much to replace the ring gear if done by none FMD?
Also whats the prognosis if i leave this and live with the loud starting? Will it eventually fail to start?

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by cossie_al on Oct 20^th, 2006, 10:39pm

If your going to do it yourself be sure to disconect the battery terminals first and USE GOOD AXLE STAND OR RAMPS before you get under the car.
It has been mentioned a few times on here about getting under a car supported by a jack alone, dont do it.
as for what a fmd would charge I wouldn't like to guess.
If the fault does lie with the starter pinion or ring gear eventualy one or the other will fail completely. As to how long it will take is anybodies guess.

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by hellblue on Oct 20^th, 2006, 11:05pm

I would remove starter & look befor you think about taking the box out,whilst the starters out drop it in to your local lucas dealer they can test it for you.Turn engine by hand to check all the way round ring gear, i think you will also find that you cant just change the ring gear as with a flywheel (manual) as autos have flexplates & i think yours is a one piece job, someone on here will have one though if you end up needing one.

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by cossieguy on Oct 20^th, 2006, 11:09pm

Thanks gents certainly gives me a few things to check/go on. Will let you know of progress on this.
Guy

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by harry.m1byt on Oct 21^st, 2006, 10:20am

on 10/20/06 at 21:46:25, cossieguy wrote:

I think you should look at the possibilty that both might be worn or damaged. As others have suggested, you need to look at both the wear on the pinion on the starter and the ring gear.

Teeth on the pinion should be uniform all the way round. Looking along one tooth it should be a uniform shape all the way along it, apart from a slight taper at the leading edge. The pinion should be free to slide along its shaft, against a light spring tension[1]. If the pinion sticks on the shaft, it is possible that this might cause grinding noises when it fails to engage fully. Pull the starter motor out and post some photos of the pinion so we can have a look.

With the starter removed, you should be able to see a small section of the ring gear. Again the teeth on this should be uniform both all the way around the flywheel and each tooth should be uniform along its length. Check all the way round the ring gear by removing the spark plugs and turning the engine slowly with a spanner on the end of the front pulley.

[1] It is a very long time since I last had trouble with a pre-engaged starter, so perhaps someone with more recent knowledge could confirm that it should slide?

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by cossieguy on Oct 21^st, 2006, 10:48am

Cheers, will have a look on Tuesday at work as i haven't got any axle stands or any safe method of raising car at home.

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by cossieguy on Oct 22^nd, 2006, 7:28pm

Have seen a BOB 24V flywheel (Second hand) for sale, will this have the ring gear attached to it?

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by cossie_al on Oct 22^nd, 2006, 8:22pm

The chances are it will have because its a pain to remove if your selling the fly wheel anyway.
If It was me I would want to have a close look at the ring gear before buying the flywheel you may be buying a one that is worn.
If you are going to the trouble of taking the box etc out I would buy a new ring gear.
The last one I fitted was fairly strait forward but I did have the pleasure of using oxy acetylene gear to heat and expand the ring over the fly wheel.

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by cossieguy on Oct 22^nd, 2006, 8:33pm

Cheers Al, will ask seller for some photos of the flywheel and ring gear and will post them for opinions. Don't want to spend too much doing this and as the flywheel is going for £30 + £16 P&P might be a more cost effective way forward.
guy.

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by twinturbo on Oct 22^nd, 2006, 8:49pm

Just to clear up a few points..

1) Manuals have flywheels that are Hugh heavy lumps of metal ( usualy cast Iron )
2) Auto's have a flex plate which is a thin pressed steel and fairly light.( no flywheel)
3) Cologne based V6 auto's have flex plate with integram machine cut ring teeth.

TT

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by howiedintheplace on Oct 22^nd, 2006, 11:38pm

As twin turbo says.

But Ford do call them flywheels ???

You will get some funny looks if you ask for a ring gear for a auto flywheel ;D

It's one complete thing.

They don't usally wear much either but it does sound like your problem.

£16 is steep for P & P they don't weigh much & so is £30 for it too.

The same one is fitted to all the V6 Granada's too.

Take a look

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/flywheel.jpg

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by cossieguy on Oct 23^rd, 2006, 8:45am

Cheers Dave, will find out today how much a new one is also a new starter motor no point in changing one without the other really. Need to find someone locally(Norwich/Norfolk) on this site who has experience at dropping the box/equipment required as I get the impression that'll be the pricey bit in all this, then do a deal with them so to speak!
Guy.
PS That'll only leave my door seals to do and the car will be perfect.

Title: Re: Changing ring gear.
Post by howiedintheplace on Oct 23^rd, 2006, 9:01am

New they are about £150 if they still supply them.

I have thrown away loads of them, 99% of the time there is nothing wrong with 2nd hand ones.

Get a set as in starter & flywheel from the same car if you want to be sure.
Must be loads of guys on here with one kicking around.