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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
        
(Message started by: Mike_Floutier on Feb 16^th, 2007, 9:49am)

Title: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by Mike_Floutier on Feb 16^th, 2007, 9:49am

I've just been reading some stuff on the site about replacing brake discs and read that "over-tightening the wheel nuts can cause disc distortion". I didn't realise that, I always do mine up good and tight "so they wont fall off" - oops!

Obviously, as a long time disc distortion sufferer, I'm now wanting to buy my first torque wrench. QUESTION - which one would people recommend - ignoring the hub nuts.

Thanks

Mike

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by Simmo on Feb 16^th, 2007, 10:01am

Mike ,Any good accessory shop should have one. Draper have one 3001A,stock no. 30357 in 1/2" drive for £30 74 + vat. shown in their current catalogue. Mike. Have a look here http://www.draper.co.uk/ or here http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/cht204-38in-drive-reversible-torque-wre/path/ratchets-torque-wrenches-2/brand/clarke. or even here http://www.pvrdirect.co.uk/productInfo.aspx?source=froogle&mode=testing&catref=S0456 ;)

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by mr._floppy on Feb 16^th, 2007, 10:48am

I didn't realise it too, in fact it sounds a right old load of pish. :P

Brake discs are made of 1/2 inch high quality steel, I can't see how overtightening the four stud bolts can possibly distort the shape of the disc. ( unless it is fitted wrongly on the hub carrier ).

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by Mike_Floutier on Feb 16^th, 2007, 12:06pm

I guess it must be one of those scientific things that happen even if they don't sound right.

Presumably the metal of the disc must be fairly bendy since:

1. They wear easily, and
2. We know they DO warp - as many people comment.

Thinking then about the force applied to them by over-tightening, I guess the force applied to the wrench can be multiplied in some way by the gradient of the thread in the stub/bolt to arrive at the total force which then attempts to bend the metal of the disc.

Does that make any sense? - my wife says I have a theory about everything; she calls me the "Oryk" which I guess is short for Oracle - not sure whether to be please or insulted?

I think I'll get a wrench anyway - can't do any harm; thanks for the tips.

Mike

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by tintin on Feb 16^th, 2007, 12:08pm

i know you should torque up the wheel nuts as otherwise
a) you cant get the b's off
b) it can weaken the stud (stretch it) so it snaps on the road

never heard of it causing warped discs before, though....but would make sense, i guess, if you tighten one more than the other, it would put uneven pressure on the disc (maybe the one you stood on to tighten, the other you did by hand?)

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by Mike_Floutier on Feb 16^th, 2007, 12:31pm

Thanks for the links Simmo. I got it for £24 (inc VAT) from http://www.justoffbase.co.uk.

Looking forward to doing things properly for the first time.

Mike

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by macroy on Feb 16^th, 2007, 12:58pm

Do the likes of Kwik Fit and other tyre fitters actually torque up your wheels with their air guns.Just a thought ???Roy.

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by Simmo on Feb 16^th, 2007, 1:11pm

Good price.. ;)

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by tintin on Feb 16^th, 2007, 1:16pm

nah, Kwik Fit just hammer them with the air guns, then you have no chance of getting them undone with the tools in the boot.

when i had the Mini garage, they were the source of 20% of our work, between broken studs, poorly bled brakes, welded on wheels and exhausts thrown at the car with lots of putty. Worst one was them putting a 13mm bolt into the g/box bracket, instead of a 1/2". bolt stripped out, oil drained out, engine seized at 70 on the motorway, she was lucky to walk away.

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by cossie_al on Feb 16^th, 2007, 3:03pm

[] With Tintin,
I think its more a case of having the wheel nuts tightened equaly.
During my days as a trainee mechanic we were always told to use a torque wrench to tighten wheel nuts :o
However, once fully qualified and on a bonus scheme for getting cars in and out of the garage it was a case of off with the windy gun and back on with the windy gun.

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by taliban on Feb 16^th, 2007, 5:03pm

never heard of it causing warped discs before, though....but would make sense, i guess, if you tighten one more than the other, it would put uneven pressure on the disc (maybe the one you stood on to tighten, the other you did by hand?)

spot on tintin, the amount of uneven over tightening of wheel nuts seems to be a disease lol. i've never used a torque wrench on wheel nuts, i do them in opposites i.e. top, then bottom, hand tight, then an 1/8 or 1/4 more using my foot on the wheel wrench.

its a good idea to have a torque wrench anyway, an invaluable piece of kit.

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by Mike_Floutier on Feb 16^th, 2007, 5:35pm

Hi Cossie_al,

Yes, I can relate to that. I once let a Main Dealer do my rear bearings and he used the air gun for the hub nut - this was before I found this site - I have to say he looked very efficient.

Needless to say I figured out the consequences just before the wheel fell off!!

Mike

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by mr._floppy on Feb 16^th, 2007, 5:43pm

A 2 foot socket ratchet extension is all I need, torque wrench's are for mummy's boys and girls ::)

Ah, those far off halycon days with my first car , an Austin 1100, and spending a whole afternoon trying to remove a rusty 3/4 inch nut with a 8inch long open ended spanner.

If only I had stuck in at school and learned about Newton's Laws, the principles of leverage and rotational moments. :-/

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by harry.m1byt on Feb 16^th, 2007, 5:49pm

I have a torque wrench, but never would bother using it on the wheel nuts. I use a spider slightly longer than the wheel nut wrench in the boot and tighten them no more than would permit me to undo them with the Ford supplied wrench in the boot - assuming I bounced on it a little.

I do take a great deal of care to get them evenly tight, going round in stages doing opposites a bit at a time. I doubt I could do them more accurately or evenly with a torque wrench.

I never trust tyre fitters to remove and fit wheels to the car, always taking loose wheel in for repair so I can fit it myself. This followed an incident long ago where the fitter put a wheel on, tightened it with an air gun - but the air gun hadn't sounded quite right. Young and perhaps foolish I had assumed the KF fitter must have known what he was doing. A couple of miles down the road came a rumbling noise from that corner and I found the nuts coming back off. Obviously the compressor had not been up to pressure, hence the air gun not sounding right. Doing them myself also obviates the problem of fitters making them much too tight to be undone with the Ford spanner in the boot.

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by cossie_al on Feb 16^th, 2007, 6:19pm

On the subject of wheels falling off,
I once whent on a break down with a young trainee mechanic all we knew was the car had a wobly wheel ??? (turned out to be a female driver ::))
When we got there the bearing on the nearside rear had collapsed. as we were on a dual carriage way and the recovery vehicle was a speck frame the car would have to be lifted by the rear wheels.
This meant the car had to be driven to the next junction, the owner refused to drive it, so that left the trainee ;D.
I followed in the recovery wagon with the cars owner in the passenger seat.
We were only doing between 10 and 15 mph but the wheel wobbled like you wouldnt believe the owner was absolutely beside herself she was convinced the wheel was going to come off and come through the windscreen. Come to mention I was a bit concerned myself.
When we eventualy got to the junction the trainee was as white as a sheat ;D ;D
He said he would never do that again.
As we were pushing the car onto the speck frame the wheel did actualy come away from the stub axle :o
I will never forget the look on that poor kids face ;D ;D

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by Snoopy on Feb 17^th, 2007, 8:29am

For those that do NOT torque up the wheel nut to the correct setting I suggest that you read the following article http://www.boltscience.com/pages/failure4.htm .
The figures that the manufacturers use are not just produced from thin air they are carefully calculated figures and overtightening a wheel nut can be as dangerous as undertightening.

I do NOT usually intervene in these sort of topics but in the interests of SAFETY I MUST.

If you however care to disregard this advice it is done at your own risk.

MOST reputable tyre fitters use a torque wrench on the nuts after fitting. I know the ones I use do . So Insist that they do if fitting tyres to your car.

The correct torque setting is http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/torque.htm

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by Spannerdemon on Feb 17^th, 2007, 8:47am

Quote:

[If only I had stuck in at school and learned about Newton's Laws, the principles of leverage and rotational moments.

}{ }{ }{ }{ }{ }{ }{

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by Mike_Floutier on Feb 17^th, 2007, 10:19am

Thanks for the link Snoopy.

btw my Draper torque wrench that I ordered yesterday from http://www.justoffbase.co.uk arrived this morning (£24.00 inc. VAT) .

Don't know why I didn't get one sooner. Too tight-fisted sometimes I guess - false economy!

Thanks again.

Mike

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by Simmo on Feb 17^th, 2007, 10:36am

Good price and good service too Mike. :)

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by Mike_Floutier on Feb 17^th, 2007, 2:05pm

Ok, so now having got this lovely shiny new beast, I quickly realise that it's no good with the wheel nut socket I have.

Is there a special sort of wheel nit socket for using with torque wrenches or is it just a matter of using a "normal" socket of suitable size?

Thanks

Mike

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by macroy on Feb 17^th, 2007, 2:47pm

Hi Mike,it depends on your socket and wrench.If your wrench is 1/2inch drive and the socket is 3/8 inch drive or viceversa you will need a converter adaptor,is this the problem?.Roy.

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by Simmo on Feb 17^th, 2007, 4:06pm

Mike, I have looked at the site and it does appear that the £24 wrench is 3/8 " drive as suggested. In that case you will need an adaptor as Roy says. (3/8" female to 1/2" male). My advice would be to see if they will swop it for a 1/2" drive one.

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by Mike_Floutier on Feb 17^th, 2007, 5:30pm

Sorry, I was too vague.

I have the 1/2" wrench and I already have enough adaptors.

What I want to know is what sort of socket I need for the scorp as my existing one has too deep a drive socket?

THanks

Mike

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by Simmo on Feb 17^th, 2007, 6:02pm

Mike. Maybe I'm being dense here but if you have the right size socket ? deep or otherwise it should remove the wheel nut. Have you got a 'security' nut on one of the studs ? in which case you need the correct fitting to remove that one. I use a standard socket on mine with no problem.

Title: Re: Torque wrench for wheel nuts etc
Post by Mike_Floutier on Feb 18^th, 2007, 1:31pm

Ok, I've found I've got a suitable socket - sorry, it's me who's being dense.

BUT, as a post script to this thread I'll share what I've discovered, having had a chance to try out my new "toy".

I thought I'd undo my wheel nuts and do them up at the proper torque - well it was scary. First off my impression was; "surely they shouldn't be soo loose!"

Then, having realised that they were ok I decided to do one up in my "usual" way and see just what torque I had been putting on them all in the past.

Some previous contributors to this thread have mentioned that "they don't need a torque wrench as they can estimate it pretty closely". Well, I thought that too. I have one of those wheel nut wrenches where you can extend the handle for undoing the nuts but NEVER when doing them up.

Well, I used the short handle as I always do and guess what torque I've been putting on my nuts? - 210Nm!! at least.

Another example of Dave Richards' adage - "Don't have ideas, investigate!"

I hope this is helpful, it's certainly opened my eyes.

Mike