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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
        
(Message started by: REDRDLC on May 3^rd, 2007, 7:49pm)

Title: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by REDRDLC on May 3^rd, 2007, 7:49pm

Hi all,
Has anyone put a manual gearbox in a Cossie? ???

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by Octavian_P on May 4^th, 2007, 12:37pm

Hi there, just have a read at

THIS (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=OT;action=display;num=1173834251)

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by mazzy_j on May 4^th, 2007, 12:48pm

I'm in the middle of converting mine ;D

Only have the pedal box left to sort out so hopefully not long left to go...

Matt

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by REDRDLC on May 5^th, 2007, 7:06pm

Whats the worst part to do,is it mating the engine to the gearbox or ALL of it.

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by Baz on May 5^th, 2007, 11:58pm

The worst part I reckon is having to press a pedal to change gear!! Why do that when a perfectly good autobaox comes with every car?? ;D

I have my Auto Cossie. Wife has her 55 plate megane cabrio auto... even my Corsair is an automatic!

Manuals are so 1980's!

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by TiberiuS on May 6^th, 2007, 2:21am

You lose more power through an auto ;)

10% Vs. 25% ::)

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by Ultima2300 on May 6^th, 2007, 9:47am

on 05/06/07 at 02:21:09, TiberiuS wrote:

You lose more power through an auto ;)

10% Vs. 25% ::)

A Cossie really needs that extra grunt doesn't it! ;D

Geoff

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by sector-9 on May 6^th, 2007, 12:28pm

on 05/05/07 at 23:58:32, Baz wrote:

The worst part I reckon is having to press a pedal to change gear!! Why do that when a perfectly good autobaox comes with every car?? ;D

Depends on where you do your driving. For stop-start and town use you can't beat an auto, but for long distance motorway cruising where you don't change gear much there's no reason not to have a manual. Does make me wonder why all the large motorway cruisers are autos and the little town cars manual though...

Personally I prefer autos because they're smoother than manuals, especially when pulling off, but they do sap engine power and therefore fuel - which is something of a concern when the engine is already a thirsy beast. The reason they use more fuel is because they generally have less gear ratios than the equivalent manual (so the gearing is a compromise to start with), the engine needs to drive a hydraulic pump to operate the gearbox (which adds to the weight as well), and there is the loss/slip in the torque converter under certain conditions as the lock-up clutch isn't permanently engaged. These are the reasons that autos are nearly always less efficient and slower than the manual versions.

Darren

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by Baz on May 6^th, 2007, 10:16pm

What a load of technical tosh.... the only reason to have an auto is so you can drive round town and still eat a Big Mac, chips and coke without worrying about changing gear... as for economy - get LPG. Apparently mine has it, but I don't like to mention it!! ;D ;D

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by Dave2302 on May 7^th, 2007, 2:03pm

[]

But incorrect technical tosh at that !!

Modern auto boxes are far more efficient then older ones.

With a bit of electronic tweaking you can get 5 gears and lock up out of a 4R44E (electronic Scorpio auto box).

This then effectively gives you 6 speeds, a sight more efficient than a 5 speed stick waggling clunker. Trouble is to get the correct effect you'd also need to change the diff for a 2.3 or 2.0 unit......blah blah blah

;D

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by REDRDLC on May 7^th, 2007, 4:52pm

IF KEEPING THE AUTO BOX,HOW EASY IS IT TO GET A FEW MORE HORSES OUT OF THE MOTOR?

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by Dave2302 on May 7^th, 2007, 5:30pm

The easiest way to make the whole car more lively and still retain a real 145 MPH is to change the diff, as these cars are overgeared from the factory.

Highlander put a 2.0 litre diff in his, along with the 2.0 litre speedo drive gear and he said its like a missile.

;D ;D

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by howiedintheplace on May 8^th, 2007, 12:36am

People have fitted manuals.

Guess it's what you prefer or use too.

But the clever guy would keep the auto & look into modding it.

Modern auto's can be made into very clever manuals err infact the very latest manuals are a sort of auto/manual hybrid ???

Yes they are over geared, the diff thing really works.

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by Dave2302 on May 8^th, 2007, 10:34am

Hi Dave,

Dont know if you saw my other post re diffs ?

Dont really want to go all out on my Cossie Estate by fitting a 2.0 diff, but do you think the 2.3 diff would be a worthwhile option bearing in mind I do motorway driving a lot with mine as well as the local stuff ?

I dont know of anyone else who may have tried a 2.3 diff.

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by howiedintheplace on May 8^th, 2007, 10:45am

Hi mate.

Well a 2.3 will be better but not as good as a 2.0L for performance.

As you know it's a balancing act between mpg & performance so you may win a little on MPG.

The gearbox is the same so if you work out your peak torques at the wheels with different diff ratio's you will see what kind of effect you will have.

Remember a 2.3 diff is a 3.9 not as stated on the main site.

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by Dave2302 on May 8^th, 2007, 2:42pm

Thanks for the reply Dave.

I kinda figured that, so I reckon I'll give the 2.3 diff a go, cos the car is ok, just a bit slow off the mark.

All said and done it is a big estate car, so I dont expect exocet performance, but a bit quicker away from the lights, and still retaining a modicum of fuel economy would suit this car.

Another job on the to do list !!!!

Still waiting for a completion date from the Scottish solicitors LOL, they seem to only work 1 day a week ;D

Still hopefully we'll be moved in for the end of the summer ;)

Regards Dave

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by macroy on May 8^th, 2007, 4:20pm

I just wish I had a gearbox.Roy :'(

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by Dave2302 on May 8^th, 2007, 4:28pm

Roy,

If you can get your gearbox to me I'll rebuild it and guarantee it for parts plus a drink, say £450.

2 - 3 day turnaround.

I'm semi retired these days but still do a few and still have all my equipment etc in my workshop at home.

Hope this may help you, ;)

Regards Dave

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by macroy on May 8^th, 2007, 4:34pm

Thanks very much Dave but I think the distance has beaten me on this.You don,t fancy moving to Lancashire do you? ;DRoy.

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by Dave2302 on May 8^th, 2007, 4:41pm

Okay Roy, good luck getting it sorted anyway.

I'm moving to N.W. Highlands of Scotland later in the year ;D ;D

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by REDRDLC on May 8^th, 2007, 5:29pm

Is the 2.0 diff the same in the auto and the manual?

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by TiberiuS on May 9^th, 2007, 12:43am

on 05/07/07 at 14:03:31, Dave2302 wrote:

But incorrect technical tosh at that !!

???

Autoboxes sup more power than manuals, not sure what's incorrect about that???

Two Ford autoboxes has been more than enough thankyou, if I get another, it's a manual :)

Regards, Bruce.

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by Dave2302 on May 9^th, 2007, 10:09am

Hi,

I dont disagree with your basic statement, I just think it doesn't encompass the bigger picture involved with modern automatics ;)

In the "good old days" when I started re - building auto's there were either Borg Warner 3 Speeds, Ford C3 3 speeds, and a smattering of american 3 speeds in Aston Martin, Jensen Rolls etc. Easy parts stock and little special tools needed for me back then ;D

Yup, only three gears and a slipping clutch effect was gas guzzling and in-efficient. Cost dearly in performance terms unless you had a big engine too. Mostly because it only had 3 ratios to choose from so it was almost always in the wrong gear for max engine efficiency. ::)

Technological advances have since seen Lock Up converters, Modulated lock up converters (varying slip degrees), 4, 5, 6 and nowadays up to 8 speeds, also variable ratio transmissions (CVT) which are more efficient with very small engines. Most nowadays are controlled by the PCM, and they are almost always in the right gear, thus engines are working at max efficiency. :)

Manuals on the other hand have become more complex, most now run oil pumps and compound helical angles for noise reduction, dual mass flywheel and clutch assemblies, which all increases their powertrain losses. As has been said earlier, many modern manuals are in fact merely an auto box that is switched by the driver, some with a conventional clutch and some without.

Also on a mass scale how many people driving manuals are always in the right gear at the right time, therefore engines are not running efficiently therefore up goes the old carbon footprint. So globally, manuals are definitely not as efficient.

As for reliability issue all automatics are by nature complicated but last a finite mileage just like a manual box does. The difference when they go wrong is that any old Tom Richard or Harry can fit a secondhand manual box and get the car driving again fairly cheaply and easily.
Automatics on the other hand need to go to a good specialist if you want drama free repairs, and we dont come cheap.
Most secondhand auto boxes are however either damaged by standing around in dirty damp conditions, or damaged by incorrect and or incomplete fitting procedures....hence all the so called nightmares we here about when they are fitted and go wrong.

As an aside, (and please dont think I'm getting personal here), guess what auto box the modern Jags are using..Ford 5R55N, basically a bigger version of the Scorpio box !

And yep, we do loads of them, only they are about 500quid dearer than a Scorpio box!!

Ah well thats progress I guess !!

Regards Dave

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by TiberiuS on May 9^th, 2007, 11:58am

Cheers Dave, and there's me wanting one with a manual box ::).

The XJ has a ZF box, the old V12 had the Borg Warner 3 speed you talk about - maybe one reason it could only muster 12-15mpg :o. Am I right in believing the A4LDE is just the old C3 with an overdrive bolted on?

Regards, Bruce ;).

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by Dave2302 on May 9^th, 2007, 1:03pm

Hi,

The A4LD (12valve Scorpio) and its later 4R44E (the fully electronic version in 2.0, 2.3 and most Cossies), are as you correctly say a converted version of the old C3. Basically they have a new case with the overdrive in the front of the box, then there is a centre support inside the casing behind which is an almost identical set of innards to a C3. The valve block is however totally re-designed and a bit too complicated for its own good. Valve body faults often cause many a burned out transmission !! :'(

Another reason they dont last as well as the old ones these days is because most of the bits inside like clutch drums etc are now pressed steel instead of cast. Although it makes them lighter and more efficient they also tend to be weaker too. :'(

When I build versions to withstand high power outputs, I always use the old V6 C3 drums etc as they are a lot stronger. ;D

As you say the earlier Jags were Borg Warner, with the V12's being an american TurboHydramatic 400, bullet proof but only 3 speed, and very very heavy. The newer Jags have ZF's which are good until they go wrong, (very expensive parts inside). And then as I said, the latest Jags have either the Ford box or the Mercedes in the supercharged versions. ;) Oh, and the frontwheel / 4 wheel drive Jags have a japanese Jatco 5 speed Auto, which again is great until the 3rd gear drum splits and burns out the box. The only consolation with this one is they are fitted in numerous other cars, Rover 75 later Mondeos and Galaxys so we can get plenty of internal parts for them but they still cost about £1200 to rebuild.

These are horrendously expensive if they go wrong :o(the Merc version), an overhaul costing in the region of £1600 to £1800 drive in drive out !!

Regards Dave

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by TiberiuS on May 9^th, 2007, 8:39pm

I heard about the Jatco (fitted in the X Type I think) and one of the later ZF trannies in the V8 XJ has problems with the torque converter cracking. I think it's a ZF 5HP24 in the Sport, luckily don't really hear of anyone having trouble with them (touches wood :-X).

Regards, Bruce :).

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by Dave2302 on May 9^th, 2007, 10:40pm

Hi Bruce,

Yeah the ZF's are prone to converter feet cracking and big oil leak when this happens, but also they lose reverse cos a cast ally drum inside breaks up and mashes them. :'(

All this talk of Jags, I had one turn up this evening, X type on 52 plate with a dead Jatco....... Still lotsa beer tokens for yours truly, looks like I'll be busy tommorrow ;D ;D

Regards Dave

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by sector-9 on May 11^th, 2007, 9:54pm

on 05/07/07 at 14:03:31, Dave2302 wrote:

I'd be intrigued to know how electrickery can create extra gear ratios on the standard Scorp auto, and how you'd achieve 6 speeds - presumably both the 'extras' would be higher geared than standard fourth with regards to your comment about using a DOHC diff?

As for modern autos being more efficient than old ones, that's not in dispute (more ratios, electronic control tightly integrated into the engine management, etc); but to say that the stock Scorp auto is more efficient than the MT75 manual isn't supported by the manufacturer's evidence.

Of course, if a manual is driven in the wrong gear for the circumstances, then the auto will be more efficient as it 'should' be in the best (of four ratios) possible at all time, but the same applies.

Darren

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by TiberiuS on May 11^th, 2007, 10:57pm

I can see where Dave is coming from but lockup in my Scorp at about 40mph only dropped the engine RPM by a couple of hundred, I couldn't see it being much use at high RPMs even if you could control it. Even on my car now, I feel it lock up just under 30mph in 3rd gear in normal mode, about 35 in sport - drop the shifter over into 3 and it unlocks the converter, revs increase by about 350...but even so it wouldn't make much difference if you locked it near the redline, would it? :-/

Not trying to be argumentative, just interested in the idea ;)

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by jwh21 on May 13^th, 2007, 3:21pm

I'm a cosworth newcomer I bought a1995 scorpio cosworth last week this week the box fell apart apart from the fact I appear to be an idiot I'd like to know how to put a manual box into the car what box do i need what do i do with the wiring? the engine is BOB eecv any help gratefully received no laughter please!

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by Snoopy on May 13^th, 2007, 3:28pm

There will be more people on here with far more knowledge about this that I have, but basically you need the bell housing changeed and then the electronics rejiggeed to fool the eec that the AUTO box is still there , when in fact it isn't .. Appperently NOT too difficult from what I have heard.
Good LUCK there are some good auto boxes knocking about ATM second hand...

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by Dave2302 on May 13^th, 2007, 8:17pm

Hi,

With regards the manual box conversion, It really isn't as simple as it seems.

I have done quite a few different cars over the years, also built a 24 valve engined 4 wd escort, which neccesitated converting the cossie engine from auto to manual.

As Snoopy said, you need 2 different gearboxes, preferably a Diesel manual and also an old 2.9 4x4 box to get the front end off of. You also need the flywheel and clutch from a manual 2.9 engine. Then there is the pedal box change, not an easy task, plus all the gearlever, centre console rubber gaiter seals and possibly some surgery to the floorpan tunnel area.

Yes it can be done .... but is it really worth it.

All a matter of preference..... me personally I prefer the auto's, and when rebuilt properly they will last as good as a manual. They can also be "hopped up" to give more ratios, tiptronic control etc. Sorry dont have time to elaborate, and have discussed this at length before, but IMHO get a good used or rebuilt auto box !!

Regards Dave

Regards Dave

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by jwh21 on May 14^th, 2007, 5:44pm

Thanks for the advice Dave it's just tht my experience of autos has been 2 ford cars with autos both of which let me down very quickly and I've never had a problem with any of the manual boxes I've had in fords over the last thirty years!

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by REDRDLC on Jun 2^nd, 2007, 1:36pm

Hi all,
I still have a manual conversion for my cossie in mind,all mechanical things considered,just wondering how you fool the electronics into thinking its an auto still??

Title: Re: MANUAL BOX IN A COSSIE?
Post by mazzy_j on Jun 2^nd, 2007, 6:42pm

What i was told you need to do is short a couple of the pins on a multiplug going to the selector so the 'brain' thinks its still in park. Or something along those lines i've yet to cross that bridge :)
Matt