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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> Engine swap 24V-> 16V - Don Quijote on a quest
        
(Message started by: pappa on Jul 30^th, 2007, 8:08am)

Title: Engine swap 24V-> 16V - Don Quijote on a quest
Post by pappa on Jul 30^th, 2007, 8:08am

Hi guys!

Thanks for everyone chipping in to my project, the advice
I have received have helped me a lot.

Now that I'm approaching the finish line, I have started to
wonder how am I going to get the O2 sensors working
correctly :O

The wiring in the car is based on the Cossie, so the
ldownstream O2 sensor (rear) leads went away with
the engine+trasmission. I now have only the upstream
O2 sensor pugins left. :) The ECU is -98 model and it
may have been modified to ignore the O2 sensors, I don't
know, but if not - then I might be in sort of a trouble with
them.

I think there are two O2 sensors in the 16V engine, one
before the CAT and one after. I've been planning on
connecting the after CAT sensor into the other upstream
sensor plugin and so on and then just see what my OBD
scanner tells me.

If anyone has experience / knowledge on this one, please
feel free to shout it out, thanks!

Title: Re: Engine swap Cossie -> 16V - O2 sensors?
Post by jonnycab on Jul 30^th, 2007, 9:26am

The 2.3 16V only has the pre-cat sensor :)

I'm not entirely sure, but I think the signal & earth wiring for the after cat sensor is there, but is joined together by a plug :-/

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i101/jonnycab/P7300049.jpg

Hope this helps :)

Title: Re: Engine swap Cossie -> 16V - O2 sensors?
Post by pappa on Jul 30^th, 2007, 10:03am

Thanks!

I'm sure it will help. I'll plug the other O2 sensor with a jump wire and
see what happens. I guess the OBD will tell me the rest of story, but
I'm really looking forward to starting up the beast.

Title: Re: Engine swap Cossie -> 16V - O2 sensors?
Post by Highlander on Jul 30^th, 2007, 7:09pm

The missing downstream sensor wont affect the running at all, sounds like you're nearly there ;)

Title: Re: Engine swap Cossie -> 16V - O2 sensors?
Post by Tompion on Jul 30^th, 2007, 7:14pm

I think that wire link is for adjusting the octane setting.

My 2.3 has a socket (capped off with a plastic cap) for the sensor tucked up by the gearbox & a blanking plug in the exhaust.

Dave

Title: Re: Engine swap Cossie -> 16V - O2 sensors?
Post by pappa on Jul 31^st, 2007, 6:43am

Well yes, I was wondering that plug too - it has only two lead whilst in
the O2 sensor has three.

It has been quite a task, but yes Highlander, I'm nearly there. About
a days work remain and I must go buy some hose, more vacuum pipe,
glue (some plastic part were broken during the the transportation &
installation process :-[ ).

Biggest remaining task to do is the exhaust pipes middle part, it has
to be re-created. Also the PATS system worries me, there's new ECU
in the car, how are they going to act together is beyond my knowledge.
But I'm sure someone will then privatly tell me how to override PATS
if that fails. Also the fuel injectors may cause trouble, the engine has
been built almost ten years ago and has been standing in a stock
after that. Well greased, all holes neatly pluggeg and oils in. Stored
in house all the time.

Title: Re: Engine swap Cossie -> 16V - O2 sensors?
Post by Kjetil S on Jul 31^st, 2007, 2:59pm

Re the PATS system. Odds are you'll need to take the car to a main dealer to let them reprogram the PATS system for you, unless you know someone with an FDS2000 or newer :)

Title: Re: Engine swap Cossie -> 16V - O2 sensors?
Post by pappa on Jul 31^st, 2007, 3:18pm

on 07/31/07 at 14:59:14, Kjetil S wrote:

Re the PATS system. Odds are you'll need to take the car to a main dealer to let them reprogram the PATS system for you, unless you know someone with an FDS2000 or newer :)

Yes that may be the case. But I'm fairly sure that there
is a workaround. I'm putting a lot of hope on the ECU.
It was meant to be a standalone ECU with no PATS
as it's mate. So, if the PATS gives me trouble, it'll get
disconnected. And only after all else fails, I will take it
to the Ford. I'm sure there is a way to re-route the
wiring should PATS immobilize the thing. There is for
the Granny, so I'm sure someone has done it on the
Scorps as well.

We'll see, I will definately post the result. Tonight new
hoses and vacuum pipes go in and if all goes well, I
may be able to try it out. It'll make a nice sound with no
exhaust pipe to muffle it down ;D

Title: Re: Engine swap Cossie -> 16V - O2 sensors?
Post by Kjetil S on Jul 31^st, 2007, 5:03pm

If that is correct, then it sounds like the PATS link in the ECU has been disabled, and you should probably have no problems at all :)

Title: Re: Engine swap Cossie -> 16V - O2 sensors?
Post by pappa on Jul 31^st, 2007, 7:18pm

I SURE Hope so...

The engine was supposed to be put into a Volga and I'm not quite sure if they have PATS
in those things ;D

Title: Re: Engine swap Cossie -> 16V - O2 sensors?
Post by TiberiuS on Aug 1^st, 2007, 12:35am

That's interesting, answers a question for me. A couple of years back I found a plug with two wires which looked like they'd been ripped off. I think it's the one in Jonny's pic but I've no idea why mine had been ripped apart?

At the time I was going through the autobox woes and hoped this might explain it...I never did find out what they were for, all I know there was 5v on one and 0v on the other and the car ran happily with them connected ::)

Off topic, I think you're on virgin territory converting a 24v to a DOHC but it sounds as though you have it mainly sorted. You'll like the 2.3 lump, you might miss the outright V6 power from your Mk3 but it's compensated with a very smooth revving engine, sounds not unlike a well tuned 6 at high revs, albeit with a bit less growl. Nice engine overall, nice mid power band and at 0 miles I bet it'll be silky ::)

Injectors shouldn't be a problem if they're unused, it's the varnish which builds up that makes them stick closed :)

Title: Re: Engine swap Cossie -> 16V - O2 sensors?
Post by pappa on Aug 1^st, 2007, 7:49am

on 08/01/07 at 00:35:34, TiberiuS wrote:

Off topic, I think you're on virgin territory converting a 24v to a DOHC but it sounds as though you have it mainly sorted. You'll like the 2.3 lump, you might miss the outright V6 power from your Mk3 but it's compensated with a very smooth revving engine, sounds not unlike a well tuned 6 at high revs, albeit with a bit less growl. Nice engine overall, nice mid power band and at 0 miles I bet it'll be silky ::)

Injectors shouldn't be a problem if they're unused, it's the varnish which builds up that makes them stick closed :)

I don't think I PERSONALLY am going to miss the 24V, because I drive the Granny 24V 8) .
It's the missus who will have the honor of wondering
where did my odd 50bhp disappear ;D . She'll appreciate
the near 4 euro per 100km saving in the petrol costs. I
estimate that the 24V, with it's leaking EGR & Vacuum
pipes vs. Brand new 16V will cut the petrol consumption by
3 litre / 100km and that's 4 euros in Finland!

Edit: We drive around 20thousand km with that car per
year, so it is about 800 euros saving per year.
If it lasts for two years without major problems, it has paid
itself back. :)

Title: Re: Engine swap Cossie -> 16V - O2 sensors?
Post by pappa on Aug 4^th, 2007, 12:56pm

on 07/31/07 at 17:03:58, Kjetil S wrote:

If that is correct, then it sounds like the PATS link in the ECU has been disabled, and you should probably have no problems at all :)

Yehaa!

I have had millions of problems and still continue to have
them. Most of them are mechanical problems, but today
I finally got electricity into the lump and into the whole
system. Decided to give it shot, to turn the engine a
few rounds. But, the PATS is doing it's marvellous job.

I get 1:6 flashes from the PATS led - Faulty link betveen
PATS & ECU. Will try again after removing the PATS
module, but I'm sure it's a Go To The Nearest Ford and
pay a sickening amount of currency for them.

I also may try to override the system after removing the
PATS module - and if that fails, then it's FORD time :-/

Title: Re: Engine swap Cossie -> 16V - O2 sensors?
Post by pappa on Aug 10^th, 2007, 6:00am

on 07/31/07 at 06:43:00, pappa wrote:

Biggest remaining task to do is the exhaust pipes middle part, it has
to be re-created. Also the PATS system worries me, there's new ECU
in the car, how are they going to act together is beyond my knowledge.
But I'm sure someone will then privatly tell me how to override PATS
if that fails.

Boy was I wrong... :-/

The biggest remaining task has not been the exhaust, it's
the wiring. Stupid me, I should have taken a closer look
on the wiring scheme BEFORE starting this project.

Last night, after swapping the fusebox into a new one,
which seems the same (I lost all interior lights and door
lights with it) I started cutting & pasting wiring schemas
together in order to find out how to get the beast started.
Well... it all ends in the connector c113 (in 24V) / c112 (in
16v) which is the brown one in the engine room. If I
remember correctly. Well... there's only one wire that
is in a same place in 24v and in 16v. My eyes may be
grossed already, but this is what I have come up with.
And some wires are missing or are totally different.

I will sort them out and after that it's overriding the PATS..

Title: Re: Engine swap 24V-> 16V - Don Quijote on a qu
Post by pappa on Aug 17^th, 2007, 4:41pm

HALLELUJAH!

THE BLOODY THING IS RUNNING!

With a new wiring loom and a quite a lot of work it is finally running.
Heck'u'va lousy idle though, and makes funny noises every
now and then, but it is working! Will sort these out for sure.

I Will go on rebuilding the rest of the car and fixing things that
were not done properly the first time etc. Hoping to get
the car ready during the weekend! Millions of thanks to
this site and who have chipped in to the project.

Title: Re: Engine swap 24V-> 16V - Don Quijote on a qu
Post by scorpio_man on Aug 17^th, 2007, 6:29pm

good news!! ;D

keep with it.

regards
forum admin team

Title: Engine swap 24V-> 16V - Don Quijote on a quest
Post by pappa on Aug 20^th, 2007, 5:11am

Yippeee.

It is indeed working and the lousy idle, guess what, right
from the brand new beginning the EGR is leaking!! And it is
factory built brand new. Well I thought I would plug it
anyway to prevent it from messing up the system in the
future.

It's been a lot of work I tell you. The wiring loom for the
engine includes even the ABS sensor cable, all the way to
the under the backseat. So I have had to dismantle the
dash and half of the interior on the RD side of the car. Now
trying to put it all back together.

Did a Battery junction fusebox mod while I was at it.
It is now INSIDE the car, not there under the waterfall
in the engine room. And it is almost brandnew as well.

Downside is now that is there's no PATS. But then there's
also NO need for key with a transponder, so I can have
about 67 spare keys to go with it :)

Speedo is not showing rpm and also the computer display
is "dead". So I need a new 2.3 DOHC speedo system.
Open to offers (including shipping to finland
silent :-/ ) in exchange I'm offering a type 10 Cossie
speedo.

Title: Re: Engine swap 24V-> 16V - Don Quijote on a qu
Post by pappa on Sep 5^th, 2007, 8:40am

Hi!

Did a virgin voyage with the car yesterday. Around 1000km with it and "No Problemos".

Well, many things to sort out though, some easy, some more challenging. The Speedo
needs to be changed for sure, the rpm is showing around 200-300 less than it truly
is, speed display is incorrect, showing around 7km/h less than it should etc. etc.
The front stabilizer bar needs to be changed/modified, it is in contact with the engine
bottom at the moment (it's from the original 24V). The VSS is probably wrong/in the
wrong place / has a wrong "screw" in it. It's the main suspect of the extremely ugly
gearchange. I also managed to break one of the ABS sensors when I changed the
front wheel bearing, so that needs to be fixed.

I did a fusebox mod to the battery junction fusebox. It is now inside the car on top
of the glove department. When my dash was off I removed some metal holders
for the relays that were there and re-routed the fusebox leads so that I could
fit it inside. Now when I open the glove department and the hatch in it, I see
the battery junction fusebox in it! No more water ingress on it!

So some work remains, but the engine itself is now working nicely.
Did a quick OBDII scan on it, no DTC's to clear out, but I'm a bit puzzled
with the readings from the HO2 sensors. There's now only one, but in
the reading also the number 2 sensor appeared. I wonder if the ECU
is trying to adjust the mixture based on the values it gets from two
HO2 sensors... I may have to add that later on, but I think it should
not matter.

I'll keep on posting.

Title: Re: Engine swap 24V-> 16V - Don Quijote on a qu
Post by Tompion on Sep 5^th, 2007, 9:32am

I think mine shows non-existing HO2 sensor as well.