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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
        
(Message started by: Mike_Floutier on Apr 29^th, 2008, 1:07pm)

Title: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Mike_Floutier on Apr 29^th, 2008, 1:07pm

Hi,

Does anyone know if there is a donut on the front end of the 2.3 petrol propshaft. (I'm not talking about the rubber bit that holds the centre bearing; rather the front end that fts into the transmission).

I couldn't see any mention of it on the site and I need to know how to replace it as the garage says it's probably badly worn - hence all the noise; which I though was a front wheel bearing.

Thanks

Mike

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by ghia-x on Apr 29^th, 2008, 1:39pm

Hi Mike. Yes their is one. I have one if you need it ;).
There is only 6 bolts in the coupling, however you will need to undo the bolts in the centre carrier which will allow the back of the prop to move away from the gearbox & the front of the prop you'll need to push it forwards. This will allow you to prize out the donut & fit a new one.
Ghia-x

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Mike_Floutier on Apr 29^th, 2008, 2:00pm

Thanks Ghia-x,

I may well take you up on that; I'm just checking the cost of a new one.

Is yours on a car at the moment or has it been removed? The reason for asking is that the garage man said that I should watch out that I don't remove the "strip" around it until I've fitted it as something awful might happen.

Will get back to you shortly. btw how many miles has it done and how much did you want for it?

Thanks again.

Mike

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Scorpio_Mike on Apr 29^th, 2008, 4:05pm

I seem to recall the correct name for these 'Donut' joints is actually a 'Guibo' joint ?

Only remove the metal strip around the middle of a new one AFTER fitting as it will expand slightly and it will be rather tricky to get all the bolts in !

You CAN re-compress one without the metal band by using long jubilee clips if you are careful.

Did one a long time ago on my Mk2 Granada estate - not difficult to do.

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Mike_Floutier on Apr 30^th, 2008, 7:54am

Ghia-x,

Have sent you a pm as FordpartsUK say that the donut for pre-facelifts can only be ordered as part of the whole propshaft although they can do us a special deal of £353.67 +VAT - lol

THanks

Mike

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Mike_Floutier on Apr 30^th, 2008, 7:56am

Oh and thanks for the tip about the jubilee clips Scorpio-Mike, I'll do that, it certainly makes sense

Mike

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by jonnycab on May 1^st, 2008, 3:47am

on 04/30/08 at 07:54:51, Mike_Floutier wrote:

Surely that can't be right...it's a separate part to the propshaft. They may have misunderstood what you wanted & quoted you for a whole propshaft, which I would assume, wouldn't come with the doughnut attached :-/

Not sure, but wouldn't the previous Granada share the same doughnut ? :-/

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Mike_Floutier on May 1^st, 2008, 10:33am

I know, it sounds daft. I guess it may be like the steering rack.

Anyway, Ghia-x I'd love your donut if it's still available. Not sure if you got my PM ok.

THanks

Mike

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by ghia-x on May 1^st, 2008, 12:04pm

Mike wrote "Ghia-x I'd love your donut if it's still available".

ghia-x. I've never heard it called that before.

Ooo. You can have my donut any time. Neee titta titta.

Joking aside yes its here.

I'll give you a bell....

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by gozz on May 1^st, 2008, 10:45pm

Mike.
Something in the back of my part worn grey matter says that the doughnut on the Scorp unlike the Granada fits without a clamp.Someone will pop up to put me right !
GOZZ.

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by ghia-x on May 1^st, 2008, 10:54pm

Hi Mike. 1 sugar coated ring donut rapped & dispatched to you today :D ;D ;)

Should be with you saturday at the latest.

ghia-x

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Mike_Floutier on May 2^nd, 2008, 9:26am

Thanks ghia-x!

And thanks for the tip Gozz, will let you know how it goes.

Mike

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Mike_Floutier on May 3^rd, 2008, 4:12pm

I've got underneath the car today to have a look at this propshaft flexible rubber coupling that I've been calling a donut (can't remember why).

Unfortunately, due to a misunderstanding, I think I've got the donut for a manual rather than automatic (Ghia-x, if your reading I sent you a pm - sorry I probably gave you duff gen) but since it's such a nice day I thought I'd have a look at my exiting one anyway.

I've posted some photos of it:

3 from the front at:

http://www.exhortations.co.uk/images/donut%201.jpg
http://www.exhortations.co.uk/images/donut%202.jpg
http://www.exhortations.co.uk/images/donut%203.jpg

and one from the rear at:

http://www.exhortations.co.uk/images/donut%204.jpg

As I've never seen this thing before (didn't even know it existed) I have no idea as to whether this kind of cracking and splitting is just mild wear or if it could be causing this vibration I'm feeling. The car is 11 years old and done 300,000 miles btw.

I'd be interested to hear your views; could this be my problem or should I be looking elsewhere. I have replaced the centre bearing recently and it still feels fine.

Thanks

Mike

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by jonnycab on May 4^th, 2008, 2:47am

Doesn't look that bad to me....a few cracks, but looks pretty tight & secure...may need changing in the near future.

I'm pretty sure it's not the cause of the noise that you're hearing :)

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Mike_Floutier on May 4^th, 2008, 7:16am

Yes, that's what I thought, it's hard to think what could be causing this vibration.

I guess the transmission could be causing it (the autobox I mean) after all it is responsible for the "cattle-grid" effect, so it could easily manage this current vibration.

Maybe I should take it to a specialist and get an opinion.

Thanks Jonnycab!

Mike

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Mike_Floutier on May 4^th, 2008, 1:23pm

Ghia-x,

I just sent you a pm. Sorry about the "exhausts" there was a mix up in the page numbering.

Mike

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by TRACEYS_LIMO on May 4^th, 2008, 8:46pm

hmm, i have had one go on a 3.0 granada. it gave no warning and made no noise before it went, but when it went it was like the hammers of hell going off, it was easy to change. if it was mine i would change it. you cannot drive very far or much over 10 mph without shaking your teeth loose, not much fun if its late and your a long way from home.

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by TiberiuS on May 4^th, 2008, 11:12pm

on 05/01/08 at 12:04:07, ghia-x wrote:

ROFL...only on this site would you get a gem like that ::)

Mike, I used to get a heavy vibration and rumbling through the steering wheel and pedals at around 44mph and again at 50mph where O/D dropped in, seemed more related to gearbox RPM than prop RPM, hold the throttle to delay the shifts a bit and I'd get no vibration. This went on but never got any worse, I never did solve it.

Assumed it'd be sorted when my 'new' autobox went in but it was still there...it wasn't really like the 'cattle grid' described on the site either. There was a TSB about the torque converter in early 2.3's causing 'engine vibration', apparently they later changed the design of the TC but mine probably had the early design.

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by gozz on May 5^th, 2008, 12:46am

Mike.
If the gearbox mounting gets weak and drops,the doughnut is out of line with box and prop and is put under enough strain to cause disintegration.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Mike_Floutier on May 5^th, 2008, 8:47am

Thanks guys,

I'll bear these ideas in ind when I change the coupling

Mike

PS Ghia-x, did you get my pm about the donut - I'm just hoping you'll sent me another chocolate - hehe!

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Mike_Floutier on May 5^th, 2008, 1:36pm

Aaah Ghia-x,

I just realised I think when I told you the part no. for the donut I gave you the wrong one I just checked and it should be "93GG4684AA" for the auto. PLease pm me your address and I'll post back the manual donut.

Thanks

Mike

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by ghia-x on May 6^th, 2008, 1:04am

Hi. The splits/cracks WILL make a big difference & that will cause the rumble that you have been talking about.
I think that you will find that the part you now have is the replacement part.
As i've not been on here since my last log, I've just red the updates. The part that was send to you looks the exact same part, & not the old (renforced blade type), that ford has used for years.......
If you need to talk you have my number..... ;)

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Mike_Floutier on May 8^th, 2008, 10:58am

Hey Gozz,

I'm very interested to hear more about the "gearbox mounting" you mentioned.

I'm going to get a new flexible coupling (donut) shortly but, from what you say, I think it would be wise to replace the rubber cushion that supports the transmission at the same time.

Is it just one rubber bit? How do you do it? And do you have the part no.?

Thanks

Mike

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by gozz on May 9^th, 2008, 12:21am

Mike.
Put a jack under the gearbox with a piece of wood to spread the load.Remove the little crossmember complete with mounting(one nut in centre).Before doing this see if you can ascertain whether or not the doughnut is stressed by loosening it's bolts and checking the planes of gearbox and propshaft flanges in relation to on eanother.I dont remember the mounting number,however it is a popular part which was also fitted to the Granada.The rubber part sinks through the housing,thus causing stress to the doughnut,if you take yours to FMD for comparison(if they happen to have one in stock)the difference can readily be seen.
GOZZ

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Mike_Floutier on May 9^th, 2008, 7:43am

Thanks a lot Gozz, much appreciated.

Mike

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Mike_Floutier on May 17^th, 2008, 1:27pm

Gozz,

My new donut just arrived in the post so I'll be fitting it tomorrow hopefully.

Do you know which way round it goes? It says on it; "drive shaft side" but I'm not sure if this refers to the autobox output shaft or the propshaft, any ideas?

The other thing I've noticed is that the noise increases when I go round right hand turns (ie. weight increases to the left). Any idea what would cause that? I thought it was the wheel bearing on that side (left) at the front so I got it changed but although it was worn, it didn't stop the noise.

I'll do what you said to check the autobox suspension mount. I don't really want to replace it as it costs over £100.

Thanks again!

Mike

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by jonnycab on May 17^th, 2008, 9:01pm

Hi Mike......have a look at your forth picture...

http://www.exhortations.co.uk/images/donut%204.jpg

It says 'drive shaft side' on the prop side ;)

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by gozz on May 17^th, 2008, 9:11pm

Mike.
jonnycab to the rescue ! but what is the metal ring to which you refer JC ?
GOZZ.

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Mike_Floutier on May 17^th, 2008, 10:37pm

Thanks Jonnycab,

That is incredibly observant!

Will let you know how it goes.

Thanks again.

Mike

Ps I think the metal ring is to compress the rubber to enable the holes to line up. BUT, as someone pointed out, this only applies to the older versions - as proved by the fact that this brand new Ford part did NOT come with a ring.

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by jonnycab on May 18^th, 2008, 12:50am

Gozz, the metal ring which I referred to & then deleted...because it obviously wasn't in the pics......is a chassis mounted ring that surrounds the doughnut.
It's not the metal ring that the compresses the doughnut so it can be fitted easily, it's a totally separate piece :)

My old '95 2.0 Ghia Scorp had a strange noise when turning corners....a kind of clonking coming from the centre of the car.

I took it to the garage & they found that the chassis mounted metal doughnut surround ring had come loose. They removed it & that cured the problem :)

It's obvious that Mikes car doesn't have this ring & I don't have one on my 2.3 facelift....but some earlier scorps had it, as my old '95 did :)

Someone will know what I'm talking about hopefully, & will be along soon.... ;)

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by ghia-x on May 18^th, 2008, 1:51am

Hi Jonny. Re: the metal ring which I referred to & then deleted... Yes I know what your on about. At the from of the prop, ie:donut, on the old diesel models (& some frog eyed models) they had a steel ring fitted to the front of the prop flange, then the donut. This was fitted to cut down on excess noise transfered through the car via the prop.
ghia-x

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Mike_Floutier on May 18^th, 2008, 4:34pm

Ok, I just got through fitting the new donut (by the way, it's referred to as a "doughnut" in the Granada Haynes manual - I just noticed, I got the spelling wrong - lol!)

Well, the old one was pretty well split but the news is that the noise/vibration is just the same, which is a little disappointing.

I tried what you suggested Gozz (about watching for a mismatch between the planes of the auto-box output shaft and the propshaft when loosening the donut bolts) but there was nothing obvious.

However, with everything in place I found I could get around 1/4 inch movement (up and down and side to side) out of the autobox output/donut simply by pushing it by hand. Do you think this sounds normal or does it indicate a worn autobox suspension mount rubber?

THanks

Mike

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by gozz on May 18^th, 2008, 7:18pm

Mike.
It is a flexible mounting,and you can waggle it around a bit,what exactly is the sound,are your engine mounts OK ?
GOZZ.

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Mike_Floutier on May 18^th, 2008, 8:35pm

It sounded a bit like a wheel bearing with a bit of rumble thrown in for good measure.

You can feel the vibration through the pedals and the seat but NOT through the steering wheel.

What made me think of the wheel bearing was the fact that it increased noticably when turning to the right.

It starts at 15-20mph, really resonates between 30 & 40mph and fades into the background noise over 55mph. The low speed noise is particularly noticable when slowing down as the engine is idling.

I can't think what would make this noise/vibration at such low speeds, does anyone have any ideas?

Mike

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by gozz on May 18^th, 2008, 11:03pm

Mike.
Is there any possibility it could be the diff ? If you put it on blocks under the trailing arms so that it is secure and just clear of the ground,then run it in gear you can hear or feel any undue roughness.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by jonnycab on May 19^th, 2008, 12:04am

What about a bad tyre ?.....Can sometimes be the cause of rumbling, especially at a certain speed :)

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Mike_Floutier on May 19^th, 2008, 9:47am

These are good suggestions, thank you.

About the tyre noise, it sounds like that - a worn unbalanced tyre at 50 - 60 mph - but mine makes that noise at 15 - 20 mph so I don't suspect a tyre; anyway, I have renewed all the tyres since it started and there's no difference.

About the diff. Firstly the noise/vibration definitely feels like it's coming from the middle/front.

Next, I had a good long run this morning (the first since I fitted the donut, apart from a very short test drive yesterday) and, although the problem is still there, it seems to have changed a bit. It's quieter at the 30 - 40mph range and noisier at 50mph and above.

I'm encourage to believe that I'm looking in the right place. What I now hypothesise is that (as Gozz suggested) the suspension mounting has decayed (11 years and 300,000+ miles) and the transmission has dropped slightly and wiggles about far too freely. (yes I know it should have some movement, under pressure, but not that much and so easily).

One result, which I've seen, is that the donut has become split through the constant bending caused by the mis-aligned shafts twisting it as it rotates.

What I can't see (but now imagine that I'm hearing and feeling) is the damage done by the pressure these mis-aligned shafts are placing on the auto-box output shaft bearings - I assume they have bearings.

Does that make sense?

What I intend to do is take up your suggestion Gozz, to raise the rear wheels and run them with the engine, and, a) listen to the diff, as you suggest, but also b) watch/film the propshaft/ autobox to see if there is any suspicious movement/shaking.

Will let you know how I get on.

Thanks again for all your input.

Mike

Title: Re: 2.3 Petrol - propshaft donut
Post by Mike_Floutier on May 19^th, 2008, 3:20pm

Ok, I had a bit of time spare today and the weather was nice so I got the back arms up on wood blocks as suggested to run the drive train whilst stationary.

I set up the video camera and a light underneath and got excellent footage of both the donut and the diff.

Both films show that there absolutely no movement in any plane on either the donut or the diff. The focus and resolution is so sharp that any movement or vibration would be visible.

Because of the lack of road noise etc. I was able to hear and feel the problem vibrations much more clearly. Also, I'd mention that the problem remains exactly the same when stationary so a lot of things are ruled out.

I think that the conclusion has to be that the source of the vibration/noise is somewhere inside the autobox; that's certainly where is feels and sounds like it's coming from. As I said before, it's a bit like a continuous but very gentle "cattle grid" effect with various resonant frequencies combined with a very worn wheel bearing noise.

As soon as I get the chance I'll take it to an autobox specialist just to confirm it and see if there's any point in doing any work on it. But, apart from that, I guess I'll try to drive around it.

Thanks

Mike