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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> Emissions failure
        
(Message started by: mindofitsown on Dec 23^rd, 2009, 4:20pm)

Title: Emissions failure
Post by mindofitsown on Dec 23^rd, 2009, 4:20pm

2.0l Ultima 16v. Took my car for MOT the other day with known blowing exhaust and legal limit front tyres. (Wanted to find out what else was wrong since if total bill too high it would write off the car).
Emission test results as follows:

Fast idle 2750 to 3150rpm
CO = 0.11% Pass (limit is 0.3%)
HC = 15ppm Pass (limit is 200ppm)
Lambda 1.13 Fail (limits are 0.95 to 1.09)

Guy said that when exhaust leak is fixed, it should then pass. Would he be correct? I can't afford to but new centre section only to find out it still fails emission test.

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by tlundkvi on Dec 23^rd, 2009, 5:59pm

It may be the leak can be welded. Do you know how big it is? Did you get an oxygen reading as well?

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by mindofitsown on Dec 28^th, 2009, 7:00pm

Hi, thanks. I can't see the hole because its in the top part of the centre box so can't tell if it can be welded. No didn't get oxygen reading as such but I thought that is what lambda indicated?

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by scorpio_man on Dec 28^th, 2009, 9:07pm

hi there

leaking exhausts can make the lambda reading go high, so if fixed, then yes, it 'should' pass.

a replacement, patterned lambda costs about £30 (without plug).

hth

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by amigafan2003 on Dec 29^th, 2009, 8:15am

A CO pass but a high Lambda fail does indeed indicate an exhaust leak so yes he is correct in saying if the leak is fixed it will pass emmissions.

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by PJDavis on Dec 29^th, 2009, 2:03pm

Amigafan is quite correct. I had the same problem with my wifes wee car, and as soon as the exhaust was replaced, (under-warranty) the lambda passed. However the engine management light did not go out, and Hyundai wanted me to go back to Dundee so they could plug it in and switch the light out! I had read on a Jaguar forum that if the battery is disconnected for more than two hours, the engine management system resets to default. So I tried this disconnection of battery and that did the trick! Hyundai didn't know this apparently, and I don't know if that would work on a Scorpio. I was also told by a Jag' mechanic that the systems 'brain' has to 'learn' your driving again...........I don't know what to make of that?

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by amigafan2003 on Dec 30^th, 2009, 12:07am

Quote:

and I don't know if that would work on a Scorpio

Scorpios don't have an engine check light so no worries there!

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by Simmo on Dec 30^th, 2009, 6:47am

on 12/29/09 at 14:03:43, PJDavis wrote:

. I was also told by a Jag' mechanic that the systems 'brain' has to 'learn' your driving again...........I don't know what to make of that?

The same thing applies to the Scorpio. It has often been said that after work on the car it should be taken for a run, over various types of roads, in order for the 'brain' to re-adjust to the numerous inputs from the sensors. ;)

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by Ivan Pevnitsky on Dec 30^th, 2009, 2:31pm

I failed MOT today too on 2500 rpm (idle test passed).
CO = 0.97 (limit is 0.60)
CH = 767ppm (limit is 200ppm)

What could be the reason?
Year ago I passed the MOT successfully.
I replaced EGR pipe 4 or 5 months ago (it was broken completely). But year ago there was a little brake and I passed MOT with broken egr pipe.

Thanks

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by tlundkvi on Dec 30^th, 2009, 5:52pm

on 12/30/09 at 14:31:58, Ivan Pevnitsky wrote:

One year ago I fought with the same problem (but results at idle were worse than at 2500rpm). I replaced injection temp sensor, egr hoses etc. but at the end of the day the cats (I have a 24V) were dead. You might be interested in this 200391609843 on ebay. It doesn't say the postage to Russia but they do within EU for £25, so worth to ask, they ship worldwide.

I assume you scanned it for other faults already?

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by Ivan Pevnitsky on Dec 31^st, 2009, 4:04pm

Thanks, tlundkvi. Very good price for catalyst, because here (on exist.ru), it costs about 800 euros %.
I'm going to finland from 2 to 9 jan (to Ruka). I don't think I'll have time to get it from England.

My error are only gearbox-related (incorrect gear ration, shift solenoid fail)

Here's the scan of O2 sensor data for 4.5 minutes running engine. The idle, and then about 2500 (click to enlarge)

http://ipevnitsky.fromru.su/COCH/os2_on_cold_s.png (http://ipevnitsky.fromru.su/COCH/os2_on_cold.png)

Is there anything wrong?

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by tlundkvi on Jan 2^nd, 2010, 10:11pm

To me, the O2 sensor reading seems in order, it is at least on both sides of the 0.4-0.5V average. Do you have the complete exhaust test reading, also for the idle test that passed (it might have been close to the limit)? Also what was the lambda? It would rule out e.g. too rich fueling (your LongFT1 seems good).

Have a nice trip, very nice and cold winter this year!

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by Ivan Pevnitsky on Jan 5^th, 2010, 6:10pm

I didn't notice the values on idle. hey don't measure lambda., but i'm not sure. They just put something in the rear of he car and check for CO and CH level =))

One more note: there's no catalyst in this car. It was broken while gearbox fixing

PS: yes, I'm in Ruka now. A little bit cold to snowboard :)

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by amigafan2003 on Jan 5^th, 2010, 9:00pm

Quote:

One more note: there's no catalyst in this car. It was broken while gearbox fixing

You've just answered you're own question.

Fitting a cat will bring the HC reading right down. For the record - the HC limit for no cat equipped cars is 1200ppm - so you would be within the limit for a non cat equipped car.

Re high CO - gain, a cat will sort that.

Passing last year without a cat fitted sounds like it wasn't tested properly.

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by Ivan Pevnitsky on Jan 8^th, 2010, 9:44am

Might be. I'm just wondering how the non-cat-equpped cars that make much more affect on the air pass the MOt, and my not :)

I have a dedline of 18.01.2010 when I have to pass second chance MOT. If i won't pass it, i cannot drive my car anymore until fixing.

Does anyone in Finland can help me with the E-bay 200391609843 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200391609843&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.co.uk%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dp3907.m38.l1313%26_nkw%3D200391609843%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1)?

I live in Saint-Petersburg, and it takes only 5-6 hours to get to Helsinki for me (including passing the border)

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by tlundkvi on Jan 8^th, 2010, 10:57am

PM sent.

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by mindofitsown on Jan 10^th, 2010, 10:03pm

Hey guys many thanks,
She just passed! Lokks like a new exhaust at £260 solved the lamda problem!
This is definately the last time tho, cost a fortune over the last five years. New spring, welding, front wishbones, ac cooler pipes, loom, coil packs, wheel bearings, cc unit, exhaust.....u name it! I love her but time to move on?

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by Ivan Pevnitsky on Jan 14^th, 2010, 7:37am

Is it really a picture of Scoprio 2.3 catalyst?

http://www.yes4cats.com/PHOTOS/90372.jpg

Thanks

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by gozz on Jan 14^th, 2010, 7:52am

That looks near enough to me,it's a pattern part though.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by scorpio_man on Jan 14^th, 2010, 8:37am

hi there

this is the ford part....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/scorpio_man/scorpio%20bits/DSCN0198.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/scorpio_man/scorpio%20bits/DSCN0197.jpg

hth

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by Ivan Pevnitsky on Jan 14^th, 2010, 3:11pm

Thanks, Scorp. Makes sense.
That was a picture of e-bay item labeled as scorpio 2.3 16V catalyst.
It seems to be a kind of universal cat like ones here: http://www.kataliz.net/catalyst2, welded to a tube.

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by Highlander on Jan 14^th, 2010, 5:06pm

on 01/10/10 at 22:03:40, mindofitsown wrote:

You cant really complain with a 12 year plus old car though, all those parts have a shelf life ;)

Go buy a new one, the costs dont go away! ;)

And DON'T get rid of it after replacing everything, you wouldnt believe how many Scorpios I've picked up with nearly everything having been replaced just prior to it being sold!

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by tlundkvi on Jan 14^th, 2010, 5:47pm

After brake pad failed MOT you got to write it off :)

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by tlundkvi on Jan 14^th, 2010, 5:52pm

on 01/14/10 at 15:11:07, Ivan Pevnitsky wrote:

At the end of the day, that is just how all exhaust systems are made. Both are more or less the same, it's just the heatshield that is monstrous on the originals.

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by Ivan Pevnitsky on Jan 16^th, 2010, 6:06pm

I have changed air filter, fuel filter and spark plugs.

Today tried to pass the MOT in second time.

The values are better, but still above the limit on 2500-3000 rpm. (test on idle revs was passed)
CO is 0.70 (limit 0.60)
CH is 270 (limit is 200 ppm)

(click to enlarge)
http://ipevnitsky.fromru.su/COCH/EmissionTest_s.jpg (http://ipevnitsky.fromru.su/COCH/EmissionTest.jpg)

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by Ivan Pevnitsky on Jan 20^th, 2010, 1:15am

Hey, folks! Just wondering if you have different requirements for cars with catalysts and without it in your countries?

For example, ppm limits for Lada is 1200/600 and CO is 2.5/2.0%

So Lada is allowed to pollute the air, but my car is not, even thoug it's clearer even without cat :)

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by tlundkvi on Jan 20^th, 2010, 5:44am

The simple: The Lada did not at new have a cat i assume and has been type approved in Russia without one. The Scorpio had the cat and has been approved as low emission with cat. Since the Scorpio has promised low emission it must keep it, and taking off the cat will not put it into the without-cat vehicle category.

E.g. in Finland new non-cat Ladas were were allowed to be sold untill around 1995 with exception permit. Other makes all had cats around the beginning of the 1990's.

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by tlundkvi on Jan 20^th, 2010, 5:50am

In Germany, green sticker (Grüne Plakette) hysteria has made people install cats in older cars. You're not alowed to drive in the center of larger cities if you don't have the sticker. And it also applies to foreign cars.

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by martin_rowe on Jan 20^th, 2010, 9:10am

1.9% Oxygen in your sample, better check that out first, will cause overfueling if the Llambda sensor gets a wif of it, your Llambda readings indicate a weak mixture (over 1.000). Find the air leak first.

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by Ivan Pevnitsky on Jan 20^th, 2010, 10:03am

2martin_rowe: couold you also look at the picture on previoos page. My lambda sensor readings are there. Are they ok?
What are the "good" value of O2 in exhaust mix?

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by tlundkvi on Jan 20^th, 2010, 11:22am

on 01/20/10 at 10:03:37, Ivan Pevnitsky wrote:

2martin_rowe: couold you also look at the picture on previoos page. My lambda sensor readings are there. Are they ok?
What are the "good" value of O2 in exhaust mix?

A good O2 value is 0%, but anything less than 0,5% indicate only minor leaks. 2% is indeed quite a lot.

Lambda sensors should respond within some 1/100s, record values in a zig-zag pattern between 0,1-0,9V, averaging over time to 0,45-0,5V. Check the Fault finder, look for high HC/CO section.

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by martin_rowe on Jan 20^th, 2010, 11:40am

Ivan
Llambda sensor readings look ok, you need to trace where the O2 is getting into your exhaust system, as mentioned above O2 less than 0.5% is what you need , lower than that at cruise speed. if you have access to an emission analyser, you could try separating the exhaust after the cat & checking the emissions there, if better then theres an air suck in the ex system, its def the O2 you need to sort out first.

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by tlundkvi on Jan 20^th, 2010, 3:22pm

Ivan, do you have a blowing sound from on top of the engine?

Title: Re: Emissions failure
Post by Ivan Pevnitsky on Jan 20^th, 2010, 6:08pm

No. All pipes seem to be OK. Where should I look for leak, before or after engine?
What I know at this moment is that 4-th cilinder is experiencing overfueling (new spark plug has a little dark coating on isolator).
PS: Unfortunately it's -25 here, and I cannor start the car now because the battery is low =)