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Title: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by pedropedro on May 17th, 2010, 9:23am had gearbox reworked clutches burnt but still revs go up by 200rpm when changing 2-3 sure it is ecu any ideas appreciated |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by pedropedro on May 18th, 2010, 5:46pm interesting dicovery ..if I select winter mode, where of course it starts in 2nd gear,the shift between 2-3 is perfect ..its fast compared to mine in economy winter mode is supposed to have softer shifts, yet on mine its "fast " compared to the economy mode,,,,in "E" mode it takes 2 secs to shift, in winter its instant....so i am guessing my problem is the ecu just thought i would pass that on..someone else on the site was suffering same problem |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by Mike H on May 18th, 2010, 9:00pm Might be helpful if you can get the OBD read somehow, see if it's throwing errors, if so what |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by pedropedro on May 18th, 2010, 9:04pm ive done that ...no codes I need to get a replacement ecu |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by Dave2302 on May 18th, 2010, 11:24pm I doubt it's ECU, the transmission program in the EECV is very simple and rarely gives trouble. My moneys on the valve chest, the flare is what caused the direct clutch to burn out. The gearbox "specialist" should not have let it out with a flare, take it back and tell them to get it right this time !! You have paid them to overhaul your gearbox, surely there must be a guarantee ?? I know it sounds silly, but it might be worth plugging in another Air Flow Meter, I have known Fords to run perfectly but have a flare caused by the AFM. HTH Dave |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by pedropedro on May 19th, 2010, 8:01am Dave tks for comments ....how do you explain, when selecting winter mode the 2-3 shift is sharp and zero flare regardless of what speed i drive it at......shifts in 1/4 sec whereas in "E" mode the 2-3 shift takes 2 secs and flares. I thought winter mode softened the shifts but in my case does exactly reverse and car drives perfectly rgds John |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by Dave2302 on May 19th, 2010, 10:18am The programming for winter mode doesn't soften the shifts, it just starts off in 2nd gear. You wil be using more throttle pulling away so when it shifts the line pressure (which is engine load sensitive) will be higher, thus making the shift to 3rd crisper. |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by pedropedro on May 19th, 2010, 10:33am Dave..tks ....issue with my box is that this is actually a refurbished replacement box...in fact its the 2nd box thats been in it over 4 years ..both had same problem ...rightly or wrongly thats why looking elsewhere...the auto people are different outfit to first ..they are adamant that the box is perfect ...now they want to change ecu ...so i guess i do that and the maf then back to them if doesnt fix....it just wears you down ! car off road for a week have to unload all the tools i have in boot etc . cabs etc youre probably thinking both replacement boxes had valve block issues and youre probably right but who knows its a dark area autoboxes i guess I just wish someone could sort it ! john |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by pedropedro on May 19th, 2010, 10:35am dave one other thing when starting when going into reverse or drive it takes 2 secs to engage its not instant john |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by Mike H on May 19th, 2010, 1:51pm Believe it or not that is perfectly normal, in fact owner's handbook says it shouldn't be longer than four seconds. on 05/18/10 at 23:24:25, Dave2302 wrote:
I'll go with that, a new MAF totally transformed my car! Before was just like kn*ckered autobox, after, perfect. |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by pedropedro on May 19th, 2010, 2:42pm ok tks for that ...highlander's sending me a MAF and ECU...so MAF first although on obd2 it looks ok.... so wait and see |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by Mike H on May 19th, 2010, 3:44pm If there's no error codes then probably means the ECU is managing to hold it together. I am imagining if the air flow measurement is not quite right, say a bit low, the ECU figures maybe the engine output will be low, so maybe lets the torque converter run a bit longer before locking into gear properly with the clutch. Just a guess, but that's what I was figuring was going on with my overdrive problem, it was "hunting" up and down between 3 & 4 without locking properly into either. In other words like the ECU couldn't decide which it should use, because the inputs don't make sense for either case. Eventually it would go into LOS, wash its hands of the box entirely, after which the box would work normally without the "interference" from the ECU. That is what convinced me in the end that my box doesn't have an actual fault. I was even looking looking for 2nd hand boxes at one point, but getting and fitting one still wouldn't have cured it! |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by Dave2302 on May 19th, 2010, 9:22pm I've had lots of different EECV controlled Fords including Scorpios in my workshop with Flare issues. Some are after a full trans rebuild too :( No faults showing and engines running perfectly, yet a MAF has cured them, don't know why, hell, don't really care why, but I know that in a lot of cases it cures the beggars ;) Cheers Dave |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by misch on May 25th, 2010, 9:26am @John I tried yours trick with driving in winter mode, at first it seemed that it cured the problem, but that is only due to the low RPM's because when you start in a 2nd gear in a winter mode, 2-3 shift occurs in around 2000 rpm's and there is no flare, but if you press hard throtle , unfortunately, significant flare happens, and it shifts in a 3rd around 3200-3300 RPM's...have you consider buying remanufactured and uppgraded valve body on ebay, they don't seem to expensive http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m570.l1313&_nkw=4r44e+valve+body&_sacat=See-All-Categories regards! |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by pedropedro on May 25th, 2010, 11:25am yes changing valve body as we speak... |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by misch on May 25th, 2010, 11:54am Great...I would do that also, but it's dificult to find a good autotransmission mechanic here in Croatia (small number of cars vith AT)...could you please tell me how much you're going to pay for the labour, if it's no secret :) tnx! |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by pedropedro on May 25th, 2010, 11:59am its being done free...as the autobox people put an exchange box in and didnt sort properly....itsa days work apparently john |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by Dave2302 on May 25th, 2010, 6:00pm LOL, John, it's a 1 hr job tops :) Messy, cos theres no drain plug, but 1hr is stringing it out ;) Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by misch on May 26th, 2010, 7:54am Dave is it possible to do valve body exchange by myself, or is it too complicated...and what do you think about theese remanufactured VB on ebay, are they any good tnx |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by pedropedro on May 26th, 2010, 9:39am tks for that Dave...everyone tries to make their work appear more complex than it is to win brownie points ie big favour if we bust a gut can do it in a day etc ......drives you nuts john |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by Mike H on May 26th, 2010, 12:57pm Gotta fit six tea-breaks in somewhere! ;D |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by Dave2302 on May 27th, 2010, 11:51am Misch, Unless you are very very good mechanically I wouldn't recommend fitting one yourself, there are a lot of potential pitfalls. The American stuff is a bit of a pain, I used to buy from America, but got a lot of "substandard" bits that were re-conned in Mexico or wherever. Some of the bits are ok, but if you got a problem, it will cost you more to post it back than buy another one. Also, the V8 Valve bodys are calibrated differently, which means it may exhibit peculiar shift quality's. That's why it's not a good idea to fit say a 2.0 valve block on a 24V etc etc...... They will work, but they ain't right if you know what I mean. John, I can't beleive they are trying to make out they are doing you a favour, after they've took yr money...... If I'd have done that job..... 1) I wouldn't have let it out the door with a flare 2) If it started flaring after I'd done it you'd have had it fixed for free in the first year, and pay for parts only in the second year !! Trouble is there's Auto Gearbox Specialists, and the there's Auto Gearbox Specialists lol, and until you've used a firm you just don't know how good they are. Hope it's all okay now for you Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by misch on May 27th, 2010, 1:53pm Dave I really ain't that mechanical, I'll listen to your advice, so I won't be messing around with it :) Could you tell me one more thing, would it do much harm to the trannie if I leave it this way, because 2-3 flare doesn't bother me that much tnx Misko |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by faffi on May 27th, 2010, 2:34pm Could I ask what you mean by flare? Is it slipping and then connecting hard, or are you missing drive or? I'm just a stupid foreigner trying to expand my understanding of the English language ;) |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by misch on May 27th, 2010, 2:49pm i'm foreigner too :)...flare is a word I came across googling for the solution of my problem http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action=display;num=1273067476 |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by Mike H on May 27th, 2010, 5:45pm Wow type 'gearbox flare' in Google see what comes up. They all do it, Audi, Mercedes, Ford, Pergeot ..... With these computer controlled gizmos almost anything could be the cause, in one example, renewing the fuel filter cured it |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by Mike H on May 27th, 2010, 5:54pm Did I mention, re the 2L 16V, whenever the throttle is closed the converter unlocks. (This is in O/D) then when back on the gas this allows it to rev a bit more, presumably "in case it's needed", then when the PCM decides it can pull the ratio it locks up again. |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by exaktaman on May 27th, 2010, 6:04pm Had 2/3 flare since I bought my 2.3. Drive off quickly thro' 1/2 shift hold that throttle opening briefly (you need to learn how long) then lift off - the 2/3 shift take place smoothly and then drive normally. I've done 17,000 miles like this and the flare has got no worse - 'touch wood'. Exaktaman |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by Dave2302 on May 27th, 2010, 8:15pm The problem here is if a gearbox is flaring it means that the particular element is slipping as it engages the gear. In the Scorpio tranny, a 2 / 3 flare means that the "direct" or 3rd & Reverse Clutch is slipping as it engages. Driving it around like this will burn the clutch out. Eventually. Yes, as said above, you can adjust your driving to help it, but this should only be done as a very temporary measure, fixing the problem is the answer, and no matter how carefully you drive it eventually it will burn out. Trouble is there is a lot of different causes to this particular problem. Without seeing / driving /pressure testing it is impossible for me to diagose the exact cause, I can only make suggestions based on what you guys have said and assuming that any work that has already been carried out was done correctly and is all in order. For example you may well have had a transmission rebuilt, but if the rebuilder for example caught a rubber seal in the direct clutch and tore it (easily done), then it's no good saying the gearbox guts are okay, just because its been re built..... You see what I mean ? It really is a minefield..... I've stripped 'em down when someone else couldn't / wouldn't fix a 2 / 3 flare after they've rebuilt it only to find they've forgotten to tighten the centre support screw, allowing fluid pressure to leak off internally and cause the problem. Very easily done if the phone rings and the rebuilder downs tools, answers the call etc etc.... The list is endless. Bottom line is, if you've paid good money for a rebuild, got a guarantee, and it flares don't be fobbed off.... most flares are gearbox related so make 'em put it right or refund your money. HTH Dave |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by faffi on May 27th, 2010, 9:30pm Thank you for the link to the explanation :) My 5-tronic in the Mondeo TDCi does this when it is well and warm during the 3-4 change. [rant] I really hate this car, it has been ridden by problems nobody seems able to fix (my bet has been the "brain" all the time, but the garage refuse to listen, just replacing item after item - good thing warranty covers it, although it doesn't heal the car). My first Scorpio, a 1995 2.9, had similar issues but at least the car was pretty and unique - something that cannot be said about the plain Jane Mondeo. Yes, it has similar room and comfort to the Scorpio (which is why I bought it) and more trunk space as well as more ground clearance and suspension reserve. And it's brilliant on slick winter roads. It still leaves me cold. [/rant] As you were ;) |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by exaktaman on May 27th, 2010, 10:28pm Thanks to Dave2302 for that consise explanation of the problem. It seems the quest for super smooth shifts has created a number of problems. I was always satisfied with the shifts in my Mk2 & Mk3 granadas or in a 1988 Merc 260. Question is, where is the best place to get my 2.3 Ultima gearbox fixed - without any hassle? I'm prepared to travel. |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by gozz on May 27th, 2010, 10:46pm You could always take a few days break in the frozen north and see if Dave has still got his auto tackle ;) |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by exaktaman on May 27th, 2010, 11:34pm Aye, a short break in Scotland would do me good! I've been to Mallaig, Fort William and his area looks really lovely on G--gle maps. |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by Dave2302 on May 28th, 2010, 11:12am I'll always build a box lol, still have all my tools, have just finished my workshop a couple of months ago, complete with 2 post lift etc etc. I'm only an hour from Fort William, and some lovely places to visit, fresh food local restaurants etc etc. (And some wild guy who runs a Karaoke in the evenings round the pubs and hotels ;) ) If you're doon soooth, you could always go to see Tony. Above all else they are good, reliable and honest. If it should go wrong they will bend over backwards to put it right. Dartford Trasmissions 01322 - 281212 Fulwich Road Dartford Kent. And what ever you do stay away from a certain firm in Erith Kent, and several in the "Medway Towns", Kent ;) ;) ;) HTH Dave |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by pedropedro on May 28th, 2010, 8:23pm Dave..some advice had exchange box fitted 3 weeks ago ..now having your valve chest fitted by someone else...will the lower gasket be ok or should they be replacing it ? its cork and i wondered whether it will be damaged when removing it ? john |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by Dave2302 on May 29th, 2010, 9:59am Should aways change the sump gasket every time it comes off or they can suddenly develop a dramatic leak, dumping all the fluid ;) They are only a couple of quid ;) If you only had that unit fitted 3 weeks ago it is covered under guarantee by law.... Which states it must be covered by at least a 3 mth parts and labour G/Tee. Most auto firms give at least 12 months on units they fit. This is plain unacceptable, I'd be giving them hell !! HTH, Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by pedropedro on May 29th, 2010, 10:12am yes ....i realise that and they do want to resolve...its just they are a long way from me...i need take day off work taxis etc...so more logical to have a local person do john |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by Mike H on May 29th, 2010, 12:40pm Notwithstanding, surely best to stick with the original repairers speshly if they want to resolve, starts getting awfully complicated if you start involving other people. (?) Problee bit late to suggest now but another option might be try a box from another car that is known to work properly, see if it works the same in your car |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by pedropedro on Jun 29th, 2010, 6:14pm just had the valve chest changed ..now marginally worse...what I need i think is a replacement gearbox ideally working which i can get my man to change any ideas where I can locate one? |
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Title: Re: 2.3 flare gearbox 2-3 Post by Tekno on Jun 30th, 2010, 11:31am on 05/26/10 at 07:54:01, misch wrote:
it's easy and DIY'able |
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