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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> The best Scorpio
        
(Message started by: faffi on Jun 10^th, 2010, 9:27am)

Title: The best Scorpio
Post by faffi on Jun 10^th, 2010, 9:27am

I suppose that if your main object is to have as reliable a Scorpio as possible, you would go for the lowest spec available (less things to go wrong) and probably a 2-litre manual as well? But most of us like to have a bit of extras to make daily life more pleasant and accept the accompanying cost/risk.

But if we go beyond that, is there some issues that cause more trouble than others, things you want to avoid? Like the Dual Mass Flywheel on the 2.3 vs. the presumably basic clutches on the 2-litre versions. Or the automatic climate control vs. the basic air condition. Or the plastic manifold on the 2.3 vs. the metal items on the 2-litres. That sort of thing.

Also, are there some years that are better than others? I think there were some upgrades concerning the heater fan after the 1995 model? I have also read, I think, that the 1998 versions are more rust prone?

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by gozz on Jun 10^th, 2010, 11:54am

For some reason the earlier cars seem less prone to tinworm,don't know why though !

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by faffi on Jun 10^th, 2010, 2:35pm

I know that my 1995 rusted more than my 1997, but that also had to do with the care they had before my time, I presume. But overall, the 1995 was more silent and seemed better built - despite being driven 245' km to 90', it felt tighter nonetheless and things like windows worked smoother and with less noise etc.

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by Tons_of_fun on Jun 10^th, 2010, 4:01pm

If im being honest i think the best scorpio is a 12 valve. Why ? ? ? Well... Bullet proof mechanicals, simplified gearbox ( no leccy gubbins ), great parts avalability ( engine ), sounds good & goes quite well ( for a 90's car anyway ). If i had to choose with my heart though it has to be a cossie. Choosing with my brain it's going to have to be a diesel ( just goes to show how brainy i am then ) ;-) ;-) All of which will have pumice leather :-)

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by Stixy on Jun 10^th, 2010, 9:44pm

For me its the 95 model 2.0 16v auto . I dont want to go 100mph everywhere and i dont like buying petrol the 2.3 is nice but i have seen more dead than live ones through headgaskets / manifolds etc but a 2.3 with a 2.0 inlet yes . I am not so keen on the v6 models as the performance isnt worth the economy

as Gozz said the earlier models dont seem to rot as bad as the later ones .
I allways fit the basic type heater controls inplace of the climate control as i have had a few winters with unreliable heaters i also replace the electronic mirrors with standard type to save the mess when it decides to leak not to mention cloud up .

leather seats are the best as the cloth seats dont wear well the covers seem to last but the padding doesnt .

At the moment i have 6 of them but only 1 is useable

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by faffi on Jun 10^th, 2010, 10:36pm

Interesting. I hope several more will chime in, I think there are lessons to be learned for everybody.

Stixy: I didn't know the 2.3 had any weaknesses - mine is still going strong (my cousin bought it when I coudln't stand not having air condition - I feel bad enough in sunshine for it to affect my driving) and closing in on 100k miles - if it hasn't passed it already.

Why would you want automatic over manual - for comfort or reliability?

I didn't get that about the mirrors - do you mean the heated and electrically mirrors can cause trouble? Didn't experience any on my cars.

When you say normal heater controls - do you mean with or without A/C?

My 1995 2.9 with CC went more and more crazy, sometimes blowing hot air on LO and sometimes cool air on HI. And then the fan began to run only when it felt like it, be that in auto or manual mode. That's when it was time to trade it in. Something I regret that I had to do, because the basic car was sound. With over 150k miles on it, the engine still only used about 2 pints of oil in 10,000 miles, the auto transmission was replaced at around 95k because the previous owne A) hadn't changed the oil and B) the engine performance varied, making the box go in and out of lock mode a lot. I compensated by letting off the throttle (to release the lock-up) before manually changing down when I anticipated more power was needed.

There was some rust on it, but nothing alarming. Actually, I was surprised to find rust on both front corners of the roof when I bought it, as well as at the rear edges of the doors. That was when the car was only 4 years old. But over the next 6 years, it was only during the last year that some rust showed up below the rear doors, rear wheel arches and around the rear lights. Also, by then the springs and shock absorbers were completely worn out. I still wish I had spent money on fixing it properly instead of selling it because it was a better car than the 1997 in many ways.

So, yes, I agree with Tons_of_fun that the 2.9 is nice. It was nearly as economical as the 2.3 on long distance drives, but about 35 % thirstier when driving around the neighbourhood. Partly due to the automatic transmission, I presume. But the growl of the V6 and the extra torque was very nice to have compared to the rather boring 2.3.

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by Stixy on Jun 10^th, 2010, 10:50pm

on 06/10/10 at 22:36:35, faffi wrote:

Why would you want automatic over manual - for comfort or reliability?

.

Disability i have bad legs

on 06/10/10 at 22:36:35, faffi wrote:

I didn't get that about the mirrors - do you mean the heated and electrically mirrors can cause trouble? Didn't experience any on my cars.

.

Its the auto dimming interior rear view mirror

on 06/10/10 at 22:36:35, faffi wrote:

When you say normal heater controls - do you mean with or without A/C?

.

I remove the climate control and fit the basic 3 dial type heater controls and mod the wiring so the air con works through the fan switch as it does on Ghia models its quite a job dash out job and swap the heater box but i think its worth it for a reliable heater

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by faffi on Jun 11^th, 2010, 7:23am

Thanks, Stixy, for the clarifications :)

Never thought the mirror would leak - I have one on my Mondeo and I really like the functionality, although I wouldn't be bothered to go back to a manual unit.

Good to hear that it is the electronics and not the A/C itself that causes trouble. I have heard that there is an issue with the 3-step fan, though, which can cause it to only work on speed 3 (or was it 1?) - is that true?

BTW, just like on my Mondeo, the manually adjustable fan will not turn off completely in the Scorpio. It did, however, do go completely off in my 1995 with climate control. Not sure if that was a defect or not, because when it felt it had reached the correct temperature, the fan would start and stop repeatedly, whereas in the Mondeo it just reduce fan speed and redirects the air flow.

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by Simmo on Jun 11^th, 2010, 7:40am

on 06/11/10 at 07:23:43, faffi wrote:

Thanks, Stixy, for the clarifications :)

Good to hear that it is the electronics and not the A/C itself that causes trouble. I have heard that there is an issue with the 3-step fan, though, which can cause it to only work on speed 3 (or was it 1?) - is that true?

.

The situation is explained Here (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/acthermalfuse.htm) and is a simple fix.

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by gozz on Jun 11^th, 2010, 8:12am

faffi.
Unless one is a 'dyed in the wool' manual box addict,the Scorpio is only half the car without auto because it is all about comfort and easy riding,shifting the stick negates the reason for owning a Scorpio.
I must add that the foregoing is only my opinion and is not intended to attempt an
onslaught on the manual box ;)
GOZZ.

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by faffi on Jun 11^th, 2010, 9:26am

I agree with the auto being preferable. I had a manual in my 2.3, and the clutch was horrible. It wouldn't release completely - you could hear a clunk in the rear final drive every time you engaged a gear from a standstill. It also grabbed unevenly - if you stood still and let the clutch out slowly, rpm would start to fluctuate rapidly as the clutch grabbed/released (hard to explain, but it was almost as if it wobbled on the axle). Switching it didn't help. But I'm not sure if this is a result of the DMF or if something was wrong on my car. The 2.0 16V I tried didn't have this issue.

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by Chieftain on Jun 11^th, 2010, 10:17am

Perhaps the best Scorpio is "yours" that works as it should

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by shooshyneman on Jun 11^th, 2010, 2:57pm

Dont muck about with all that expensive Petrol, Cam Belts or Chains. Get a diesel, It might not accelerate like a 24Valve but it cruises just as well. Oh and an autobox if youre very lazy. When the oil price goes up you can always go to the chip shop and use his frying oil

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by rich1 on Jun 11^th, 2010, 8:36pm

auto all the time , i know a couple of london cabbies that had manuals specially ordered ...............madness !!!!
i couldnt go back to a manual ever again

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by faffi on Jun 11^th, 2010, 8:39pm

Cannot see why the cam chain on the diesel should last longer than the chain on the 2.0 or 2.3?

Apart from that, I'm done with the fuel of satan (TM Jeremy Clarkson) - the smell, the noise, the mess a solitary drop makes after filling up, the lack of power and the narrow powerband all contribute to make diesels the third choice for me. The TDCi in my Mondeo has been far from impressive.

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by Mike H on Jun 11^th, 2010, 9:14pm

on 06/10/10 at 21:44:24, Stixy wrote:

For me its the 95 model 2.0 16v auto

Ditto, but must be properly sorted in my experience. Was idly studying 2.3's a while ago but was put off by plastic inlet manifolds etc.

Quote:

as Gozz said the earlier models dont seem to rot as bad as the later ones .

Same here, maybe the steel came from a different place? ;D

Mine's bottom of the heap Exec so no AC to worry about. Problee only really needed it 2 or 3 days in any year so having to maintain it etc. looks like a complete pain. Blower / heater does most what I want most of the time.

I luv autos and I agree about the luxury / lazy bit, I imagine the Scorp with a gear stick would be a right drag and completely spoil the "effect".

Don't like leather seats so cloth is just fine. Haven't noticed any problems with padding but all the covers are still perfect.

Are there any Execs left still running in the world or have I got the only one? http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/unsure.gif

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by Highlander on Jun 11^th, 2010, 10:36pm

If there were such a thing as a "Best" Scorpio we would only have one type of engine/bodytype/spec etc.

Everyone has different preferences and requirements, what suits you doesnt suit me and vice versa

I have a diesel estate I use for long distance carrying stuff and a 24v saloon for "playing" in

I wouldn't dream of using either one for the wrong job ;)

The 12v is pretty bombproof but all engine types have their own faults and advantages

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by gozz on Jun 11^th, 2010, 11:41pm

Cannot see why the cam chain on the diesel should last longer than the chain on the 2.0 or 2.3?

Does the diesel not have timing gears then ?
GOZZ.

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by faffi on Jun 12^th, 2010, 12:08am

Is it a pushrod design, then? If it's OHC design, it would be very unusual to have just gears to drive the cam(s).

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by gozz on Jun 12^th, 2010, 9:37am

[quote author=faffi link=board=Advice;num=1276158449;start=0#18 date=06/12/10 at 00:08:37]Is it a pushrod design, then? [/url]

YES.

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by shooshyneman on Jun 12^th, 2010, 10:16am

No cam belts on diesel, No chains either, must be revolutionary!

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by Mike H on Jun 12^th, 2010, 1:52pm

If it's pushrod then camshaft down near the bottom, so could be a short chain off the crank or could be close enough for gears.

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by faffi on Jun 12^th, 2010, 7:14pm

The old Volvo B18/B20 also were pushrod designs with pinions driving the cam. Only one of them were made from plastic to keep noise down. Some would run for 300,000 miles, other would fail at 1/10 that.

Any sign of weakness in the Ford diesel design? Any differences between the 115 and 125 hp units?

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by gozz on Jun 12^th, 2010, 8:43pm

It's an Italian VM engine adopted by Ford.

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by Mike H on Jun 13^th, 2010, 1:57pm

Is that a fact? Gerraway

LOL you'd think they'd have enough of their own to choose from ;D

Plastic timing gears http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/th_pffft.gif

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by Stixy on Jun 13^th, 2010, 5:37pm

VM timing gears

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q289/the_fomoco_kid/td1.jpg

Gear number 4 is the camshaft

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q289/the_fomoco_kid/td2.jpg

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by Stixy on Jun 13^th, 2010, 5:39pm

The Essex and early cologne V6 had fibre timing gears and they either lasted forever or a fortnight

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by faffi on Jun 13^th, 2010, 6:57pm

I'm slanting more and more towards a Cologne Ghia (if I can find one) now that the deal with the Cosworth seems to fall through (owner says he's grown too fond of the car http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/YaBBImages/rolleyes.gif ) Cologne because I had one that I was happy with save for electronic issues (which had nothing to do with the engine) and Ghia because of the lesser equipment level, but with the important air condition.

I don't care about memory for the seat, but I would like to be able to adjust the seat for angle as well as lumbar support - don't now if that's possible without the memory bit?

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by Highlander on Jun 13^th, 2010, 8:50pm

a 12v Cologne? The 24v is ALSO a Cologne ;)

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by gozz on Jun 13^th, 2010, 10:21pm

faffi.
I weighed in an aubergine Ghia recently without any aircon fitted,and my colleague had a Coleman Milne 24v limousine without aircon,best ask the question when considering a purchase.There was a generation of Britons who would not entertain encumbrances allied to North America !!Could it be the same where you are ?
GOZZ.

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by faffi on Jun 13^th, 2010, 10:44pm

Perhaps, I don't know. My first Scorpio was a GLX (lowest spec, I believe) but fitted with climate control, cruise control, 6000 radio unit and 10-disc CD changer. My second was also GLX, no air con (reason for sale) but with headlight adjuster and heated front shield and 6000 radio unit without CD changer. Both had heated seats.

I would definitely make sure any car I would consider is fitted with air con, be it manual or automatic. I could manage to live with an old Mercedes or Volvo without air con (just) because they have lots of fresh air inlets. The Scorpio has none - you simply cannot get outside-temp air into the car, it's like always driving with the heater on a little. At least the 3 I've drivven were like that, so I think it's a design feature. And my Mondeo is also the same, although easily resolved since it has CC.

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by Highlander on Jun 13^th, 2010, 10:47pm

There must have been a problem with them, if set correctly and working there should be plenty outside air for cooling, did you feel heat all the time?

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by faffi on Jun 13^th, 2010, 11:12pm

No lack of air flow, only it was never cool. Even during winter, I could not get really cold air into the cabin. Parked in the sun, the air was downright hot (at least for someone wanting to be cold) and only driving with the windows down would help. This was with the CC car even set to LO (with A/C turned off) as well as my Mondeo with CC (A/C turned off) and the non-AC Scorpio. On my old Mercs and Volvos, you would always get ambient temperature air into at least the centre facia outlets instantly. Vents down at the feet also gave cool air, but these weren't operated by the fan, only during speed did pressure force air inside the car.

Another irritating point about the Fords is that 1) the fan must run to get air into the cabin (which means it cannot be fully shut off) and b) speed has almost no impact on the amount of air getting inside. Most cars will give a good blast with the fan fully off when doing 40 mph or more - increasing with the speed of the vehicle.

Then again, no car is perfect, and there are bigger worries to be concerned about ;) And on the Fords, the issue is dealth with as long as the car as A/C.

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by Mike H on Jun 14^th, 2010, 10:14pm

Interesting! I've never had the fan on pos 3, it's too much! And I'm pretty sure air does get in with the fan off but if going fast enough, like 50.

Can still be a bit warm for two reasons, either heater not completely off or, sunshine has heated up the metalwork around the intakes. Then it needs a bit of use to get some air blowing through to cool it down.

Not forgetting of course, if the outside air isn't cold, it ain't going to be cold inside ;D

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by faffi on Jun 14^th, 2010, 11:02pm

On my 2.3 Scorpio and my Mondeo, the fans will not go off completely - it would be interesting to hear if others have noticed this. Set the fan to off and put the ignition on - does the fan turn slowly and can you feel air coming out of the vents?

On a day with 15C, the air coming into an old Volvo is pretty cold, like setting your AC to 16 degrees and then some. I never got that from the Scopios, not even after driving for hours. And Volvos have big black dashboards, too, and it never took long to get fresh, cool air inside through the vents.

If it wasn't for the fact that 3 Scorpios and one Mondeo has proved the same, I would have thought it was just my car that was faulty. But for whatever reason, Ford has decided to take in air in a low-pressure zone that require the fan to be moving in order to get the air flowing.

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by Stixy on Jun 14^th, 2010, 11:39pm

All Fords from aprox 1990 the fan still runs at a low speed even when the fan switch is off and only shuts off completly when the vents are closed via the air distribution knob its to maintain minimum "airflow" through the car .

But hot air all the time could mean the climate control needs a reset or in the case of manual heater controls the cable can somtimes slip off the heat flap on the heater box .

Another posibility is the polen filters could be blocked restricting airflow

on some older non Ford cars the faster you go the more waft you get but Ford heater / ventilators for as long as i can remember have never done that even dating back to mk4 Zodiac's mk3 Cortina's and Sierra's and of course mk1/2/3 Granada's

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by faffi on Jun 15^th, 2010, 7:02am

By hot I do not mean like full heater hot, I mean warmer than the outside air. So let's say it's winter and freezing, you can feel the sting being taken out of the air. And on a sunny but cool spring day, when the sun is making the car interior hot despite the outside temp being less so, you want that crispness from the outside air yet cannot get it. And the warmer it gets, the worse it is to have this bit of heating. It's a big difference to get air inside that is 25C instead of 32C.

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by tlundkvi on Jun 15^th, 2010, 7:12am

Could it be related to the fact that the Scorpio doesn't have a valve to the heater matrix inlet?

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by Mike H on Jun 16^th, 2010, 8:59pm

on 06/14/10 at 23:39:21, Stixy wrote:

Ah yes does say in the handbook to put the fan completely off the distribution knob has to be fully anticlockwise. Does work, I can hear the switch.

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by Stixy on Jun 16^th, 2010, 10:44pm

If it gets too hot inside the car i wind my window down ;)

Title: Re: The best Scorpio
Post by faffi on Jun 22^nd, 2010, 11:02pm

I did a test on my Mondeo. Sunny, 14-15C outside. CC set to LO, air con off. Air temp dumped into car: 22.5-22.6C. Horrible! Switched on air con, temp from pouring air quickly dropped to 6.1-6.6C. Nice :)

The Scorpio was similar. Although I never actually measured it digitally, I most certainly felt the effect.