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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in weight.
        
(Message started by: The Rooster in the Scorpio. on Feb 3^rd, 2011, 11:37am)

Title: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in weight.
Post by The Rooster in the Scorpio. on Feb 3^rd, 2011, 11:37am

Hi to you all out there. Has anyone that has now or has had a 2.3 16v Scorpio Ultima Auto Estate had their car weighed on a reliable weighbridge?.
My recent acquisition was bought on the basis of using it as an alternative tow-car to my 1997 Volvo T5 CD Auto. Whilst the car is heavier and has a greater braked towing weight than the Volvo I am looking to see if anyone out there can shed some light on the car details as per the data sheet. The indicated weight of the Scorpio is 1769kgs as per EU Directive 95/48/EC. The maximum braked towing weight is 2000kgs.
The data sheet lists it as 1694kgs,there is a foot-note that says :- Weights in Kilos. Assumes full fluid levels,90% full fuel tank and no driver. Therefore by adding the 68kgs allowance for the driver it comes up to 1769kgs. There is still another 7kgs for luggage allowance not included or made mention of,it potentially could be up-to 1776kgs.

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by Highlander on Feb 3^rd, 2011, 12:05pm

Hi John,

1570 - 1845Kg for the 2.3 estate according to the handbook

the individual car weights all vary according to model and equipment level.

eg. The fully electric passenger seat was an option even on Ultimas and they are a LOT heavier than a manual one ;D

Ideally you would need to weigh your own for the exact weight.

They tow very well, I have towed a LOT of cars with my Scorpios, probably very close to the 2000Kg limit and they do a good job.

I have a 24v estate with a 4.27 diff from a 2.0 16v and it tows great ;D

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by The Rooster in the Scorpio. on Feb 3^rd, 2011, 1:11pm

Hi Highlander. Yes I am aware of the differences created by different trim levels etc.
If you look on the Forum Site under Dimensions and Weights there is a panel that covers Scorpio Saloon & below that the other one is Scorpio Estate. In that panel it gives the model variants within the Estate range. My understanding has always been that the Ultima designation was (Ultimate Choice) The Lot. The 2.3 16v Auto Ultima has everything on it,mine has. the given weight is 1694 then add the driver at 68kgs/75kgs, that comes to 1769kgs/1776kgs. The Owner Handbook(the one that I have) is a less detailed version of that data (that data is allegedly from the Original Ford Dealer Data),it gives the Kerb weight range from 1628kgs to 1796kgs (including driver 75kgs). Where is the data that you are quoting & or which handbook?. The Owner Handbook actually only covers gearshift speed data for the 2.0 DOHC 8v,the 2.0 DOHC 16v & the 2.5 turbo diesel,all transmissions are listed as manual. It is only when you look at the section covering fuel consumption that the 2'9's are mentioned. There is no reference to the 2.3 16v. The VOSA bridge is 0.5% accurate,the most accurate in the world. My car weighs 1670kgs!!!!!!!!!!!???.

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by Highlander on Feb 3^rd, 2011, 1:30pm

The Ultima had the highest basic trim level but did not include everything.

There were a lot of optional extras available even to the Ultima spec (such as the passenger seat I mentioned above, Traction control, reversing sensors, passenger airbag etc)

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/handbook.htm

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/handbook140.gif

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by Simmo on Feb 3^rd, 2011, 1:56pm

John, Have a read of This (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/vin.gif) which should then give you the precise detail for your car. :)

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by Tekno on Feb 4^th, 2011, 9:53am

I have 2.3 estate auto with EVERYTHING possible accessory, except leather seats. Plate and papers say 1575kg ???
Pic of the time I bought: http://ruohoranta.fi/singapore/galleries/sekalaiset/Scorpio-98/_thumbs/700x500-dsc04569.jpg
There was also Nokia Handsfree speaker on passenger side footspace. (plus mic on sunblock, gsm antenna on roof and everything connected to radio) It had lug which was between fascia and dash, like meant to be fitted only to Scorpio. That speaker is made of fiber glass. Don't know if its made by Ford, Nokia or someone else.

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by The Rooster in the Scorpio. on Feb 4^th, 2011, 2:31pm

on 02/04/11 at 09:53:43, Tekno wrote:

Hi to Tekno,Highlander and to you all. Interesting image!!,a left hooker, or is it a colour reversal image backwards way around ??. I like the steering wheel,there is one of these on an E'bay alert that I put on the forum a few days ago. The whole car is at Burton,South Wirral,Cheshire. The difference between the weight of Leather & Velour as used in the cars would be in the order of circa 2.5kgs tops,there is only approx' 34sq ft of leather used,the non wearing faces are about the same as the fabric used on the velour trimmed vehicles anyway
Back to the subject of the original post, I have spoken with the Ford Technical again and at their request I sent them an E'mail with my specific concerns outlined.I have had a reply but the guy is at crossed purposes in his reading of my information.
As Highlander pointed out in his post of 3rd Feb trim levels etc do make a difference. My car has everything on it,but with the exception of Traction Control. I don't think that this would cause the LARGE discrepancy that I am querying with them.
Highlander,I have got the details from my Vin on the slam panel. My axle ratio is 3.91 with the 4ALDE box. The colour is 6 Moondust Silver !!?,the car is Cuirass according to the unused 2pack touch-up in the glove box. It is Metallic Pale Blue with a hint of Lilac to look at (no I'm note colour blind.
Despite the fact that is obviously an Estate Car the Vin reference is missing. The interior trim is Black Leather the code is SB, S is Raven,what is the B about?. Could this be reference to the complimentary matching/companion cloths with the Raven Leather.
I have had my car weighed and that is the reason why I posted the query/question, then I made contact with The Ford Technical Department. The response is interesting,not least of all casting doubt as to the source of the data to which I have have relied upon and quoted to them.
I will keep the forum posted on the developments and outcome in due course.

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by Highlander on Feb 4^th, 2011, 2:41pm

Its a left hooker, ignition barrel would be on the wrong side,
Tekno is from Finland (spot the flag) ;)

Your VIN plate should show you the gross weight? what did it say?

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by The Rooster in the Scorpio. on Feb 4^th, 2011, 2:47pm

on 02/04/11 at 14:41:34, Highlander wrote:

Its a left hooker, ignition barrel would be on the wrong side,
Tekno is from Finland (spot the flag) ;)

Hi Highlander. Well silly me!!!?. Of course everything just gets moved over,Lock(no pun intended)Stock and Pedal Box.

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by The Rooster in the Scorpio. on Feb 4^th, 2011, 3:00pm

on 02/04/11 at 09:53:43, Tekno wrote:

I have 2.3 estate auto with EVERYTHING possible accessory, except leather seats. Plate and papers say 1575kg ???
Pic of the time I bought: http://ruohoranta.fi/singapore/galleries/sekalaiset/Scorpio-98/_thumbs/700x500-dsc04569.jpg
There was also Nokia Handsfree speaker on passenger side footspace. (plus mic on sunblock, gsm antenna on roof and everything connected to radio) It had lug which was between fascia and dash, like meant to be fitted only to Scorpio. That speaker is made of fibre glass. Don't know if its made by Ford, Nokia or someone else.

Hi Tekno. The lug (bracket) that you refer to is more than likely one from a company called DashMount. They specialise in brackets dedicated to each manufacturers model range. Well priced and very well made,a good range of well thought out products.
The plate that you refer to, giving the weight as 1575kgs. Where is it/what plate ?. The only one that I can see on my car is the Vin Plate,it does not give the weight of the car but it does give all of the legally required details.

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by Highlander on Feb 4^th, 2011, 3:39pm

on 02/04/11 at 15:00:40, The Rooster in the Scorpio. wrote:

The plate that you refer to, giving the weight as 1575kgs. Where is it/what plate ?. The only one that I can see on my car is the Vin Plate,it does not give the weight of the car but it does give all of the legally required details.

Remember Tekno is in Finland.. they do things different to us..

Can I just clarify exactly what it is you are looking for?

You have had your car weighed at 1670 Kgs so this is your Kerb weight? (no people luggage etc?)

You have a maximum Gross Weight of 2125Kgs

You can tow a braked trailer up to a maximum Gross weight of 2000 Kgs

What else do you need?

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by The Rooster in the Scorpio. on Feb 4^th, 2011, 8:15pm

on 02/04/11 at 15:39:07, Highlander wrote:

Hi Highlander. To clarify,the car was weighed with a 90% full fuel tank,me in the car(68kg driver) and the token 7kgs of luggage. This is as per the EU Directive 95/48/EC.
The recorded weight was 1670 kgs. The indicated weight on the data sheet for the 2.3 16v Auto Scorpio Ultima Estate is 1769kgs. That is 99kgs lighter than I believed the car to be.
At 1769kgs with the 2000kgs towing limit it would have represented a massive leap on the 97 Volvo T5 CD Auto that I have as my current towcar. I will not tow over my kerbweight and although it is a improvement on the Volvo,it still leaves the caravan underutilised,albeit less so than with the Volvo.
Having never towed a large twin axle caravan with a Scorpio Ultima Estate I am on a learning curve with it.
Yes, it is a big car and with a good potential payload. That will be easily used up on an 8/9wk trip to the Costa Blanca for a Winter Sun.
In conclusion the EU Directive was an attempt to"Harmonise" or "All singing of the same hymn sheet" across Europe as far as unification of the definition of kerbweight was concerned. This is the figure that is the basis for matching tow-cars to caravans based on criteria advised by The Caravan Club & other bodies in the industry. It is specifically there as a parameter to enable and promote safe caravanning & towing in general to beginners/novices.

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by amigafan2003 on Feb 4^th, 2011, 10:24pm

I think you're over analysing the situation too much........

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by The Rooster in the Scorpio. on Feb 4^th, 2011, 11:08pm

on 02/04/11 at 22:24:44, amigafan2003 wrote:

I think you're over analysing the situation too much........

Hi amigafan.That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. The situation with a Beginner Caravanner working on the basis of 85% of a fictitious figure,and only to find that the figure is 99kgs lower than he/she has based his/her calculations on. Then to cap it all having invested his/her money in what I now have; he/she finds that for safety he/she is adrift by a sizeable margin. That leaves two choices. Take a risk and risk a real and very potential nightmare or get rid,start again of either the caravan or the car.

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by Snoopy on Feb 5^th, 2011, 8:46am

As I understand the law with regards towing the weight that you require is the one that the manufacturere states in the handbook. I do not think they expect everyone to go and get the car weighed. I think you are looking for problems that really are not there.

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by amigafan2003 on Feb 5^th, 2011, 10:52am

Take a risk and risk a real and very potential nightmare

What? You're towing a caravan, not skydiving! Your manner of driving will have the greatest impact on your safety, not a guideline towing percentage.

The 85% is a guideline, not a rule. Again, I think you're over analysing the situation.

Another note - I deal with VOSA weighbridges alot (kit cars), they round to the nearest division - a division is 20kg. On top of that they are only required by law to be accurate to 3 divisions - 60kg. So, your car could actually be upto 1740kg (3 divisions plus rounding = 70kg).

On the subject of variations in weights between seemingly identical cars - small variations in panel thicknesses can greatly affect the overall weight of the car. For example, the Ford Sierra at the beginning of it's life and 2mm thick floor panels and 1.2mm on exterior panels. By the end of it's life it had 2.2mm floor panels and 1.4mm exterior panels. This meant the newer Sierras were 90kg heavier.

Maybe the Scorpio had panel variations throughout it's life? It's not uncommon, even for prestige marquees like Mercedes and BMW.

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by The Rooster in the Scorpio. on Feb 5^th, 2011, 11:41am

on 02/05/11 at 10:52:09, amigafan2003 wrote:

So, 85% of 1769kg is 1503kg.
85% of 1670kg is 1420kg - 83kg difference.

How are you going to make sure your caravan is going to be loaded correctly to hit 1503kg or 1420kg? Are you going to put it on a weighbridge before you set off for your hols?

It's worth noting that even if you assumed your car was 1769kg and you calculated the 85% weight to be 1503kg, even using this on your car that actually weighs 1670kg that's still 90% - an acceptable towing margin even for a beginner.

What? You're towing a caravan, not skydiving! Your manner of driving will have the greatest impact on your safety, not a guideline towing percentage.

The 85% is a guideline, not a rule. Again, I think you're over analysing the situation.

Another note - I deal with VOSA weighbridges alot (kit cars), they round to the nearest division - a division is 20kg. On top of that they are only required by law to be accurate to 3 divisions - 60kg. So, your car could actually be upto 1740kg (3 divisions plus rounding = 70kg).

Hi amigafan. I am told by the MD of AxleTech (they make,install & service the product) that their bridges are 0.5% accurate and are calibrated in 5kg increments. Indeed,I have been on their own (open to the public for £6.00)Dynamic Axle Weighbridge in Runcorn,Cheshire. That is how I know the weight of my Scorpio Estate.A very local old style bridge of 20kg increments recorded 1680kgs. In both cases the car was presented in the same manner.
The business of wanting confirmation from the Ford Motor Company and by way of an explanation as to why there is such a discrepancy is as a result of really fictitious figures on the Towsafe Data Base and a Right Royal Run-around by Volvo Cars UK Ltd.
To go into it on the forum would be space & time consuming and not of general interest or of advantage to this site. Do you tow a caravan yourself?.

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by amigafan2003 on Feb 5^th, 2011, 1:29pm

Quote:

Do you tow a caravan yourself?.

Yes, I have one caravan and also a car trailer that I use to tow my Westfield to trackdays/shows.

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by gozz on Feb 5^th, 2011, 7:21pm

Blimey Rooster,what are you worried about ? get your van on and get cracking,don't let em grind you down,it's pointless splitting hairs,see that the old Scorp is in good order and get on with it.I speak as an ex (owing to age) haulier,there are clever sods up the road who may have a go at argueing,just keep your own counsel,do not worry,you'll be OK,trust me 8)
GOZZ.

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Feb 5^th, 2011, 9:30pm

Rooster, when I used to tow a caravan (14ft single axle) with my old 1600cc cortina estate and granny MKIII's it was a case of just hooking up and getting on my way.
I just shoved any excess baggage low down over the axle (no not the wife) checked that the nose weight was about the same as a sack of spuds, car loaded to the gunnels , + Mrs & 3 kids and away we went ,and no stabiliser either.
I now regularly pull a twin axle flat bed (ex horse box) loaded up with extremely large amounts of timber with my 2.3 and the ole girl sticks to the road like gum to a footpath.
Don't worry, take your time, stay alert and you'll be fine.

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by Highlander on Feb 8^th, 2011, 9:58am

I'm still lost! ;D

Isn't it just a matter of caravan < 2 tonnes = Sorted? ;D

What weight is your caravan Rooster?

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by The Rooster in the Scorpio. on Feb 8^th, 2011, 11:38am

on 02/08/11 at 09:58:25, Highlander wrote:

I'm still lost! ;D

Isn't it just a matter of caravan < 2 tonnes = Sorted? ;D

What weight is your caravan Rooster?

High Highlander. No it's not quite that simple,but it is not difficult either!. The car weighs 1670kgs as per the EU Directive for kerbweight. It is heavier than my Volvo T5 CD Auto but not by the margin that I expected;based upon the figures that I have that indicate it should be in the order of 1769kgs.
The caravan as it came from the manufacturer in the MiRO format is 1440kgs.
The both cars and the caravan have been weighed on a VOSA spec' bridge (accurate to 0.5%).
The maximum weight of the caravan is what the 85% guideline is based on,this is for the beginner/novice to caravanning.
I will quite happily tow at very close to the weight of the car,but not over that weight. The notion was to get a car heavy enough for my lady friend to use with the outfit within the parameters of safe towing for a beginner/minimal experience when we take it through France on onto the Costa Blanca for an 8-12wk Winter Sun run.
As it is, the caravan will still be under utilised. If the car had come up to or very much closer to the expected figure then that would have reflected in the better utilisation of the potential load of the caravan.
I know the points of law,my issue is with the very misleading,indeed erroneous figures that have been put out as an indication by the Ford Motor Company.
At this present time I am considering a 2.9 24v Cosworth Ultima Estate on the basis of it being the heaviest of the petrol variants.
I don't particularly want any of the other large Estate Cars like the top-end Merc E class or the Chrysler 300c Touring which is an E class with a different Over Coat,or for that matter a 4x4 Chelsea Tractor.

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by Highlander on Feb 8^th, 2011, 12:31pm

I think I understand ;D

The current setup means you are unable to use the caravans potential load capacity as it will rise above the guideline 85% kerbweight of your car.

For your ladyfriend towing you would like it to be equal to or less than the 85%

Therefore you require :

A) a car with a greater kerbweight....

B) a lighter caravan.

C) a NEW ladyfriend with more towing experience ;D

Title: Re: 2.3 Ultima Estate & Big discrepancy in wei
Post by The Rooster in the Scorpio. on Feb 8^th, 2011, 2:46pm

on 02/08/11 at 12:31:30, Highlander wrote:

Hi Highlander. Now you are getting the picture,however in the order of your observations/resolves.
A). Yes perhaps but without spending stupid amounts of money At present the 2.9 23v Cossie Ultima Estate is looking like a contender.

B). A lighter van,maybe;but I would be hard pushed to find a lighter van without sacrificing the build quality of our 2001 Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco.

C). No way Amigo,she is happy to assist on suitable occasions. To keep the 'edge on scary' is a safeguard to not loosing my use of the outfit. Her reactions are a bit questionable at times & she reads maps upside-down and rotates them in accordance with the shift of the compass.

Oh and, C+1). I am happy with the way she looks after my Dietary needs and reads me stories at bedtime.