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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> Engine cuts out on clutch
        
(Message started by: Roundozo on Aug 15^th, 2011, 2:19pm)

Title: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Roundozo on Aug 15^th, 2011, 2:19pm

Hi all,

As some of you are aware I have installed the 24v 2.9 into a MK4 1978 ford Cortina. I have now managed to locate and install the new water pump and bypass hose (right pain in the backside!). Today I drove the car to the MOT station but on the way the engine died. ???

To get around the PATS system a BOA wiring loom was used, I don’t know if this is the issue but it might help in diagnosing the issue. When I start the car the rev’s go up to about 2.5-3 rpm. After a couple of seconds she then returns to idle on 1000rpm. When driving to the MOT station I came to a roundabout. Obviously I needed to put the clutch in to change gear as it now has a manual box. When I did this the rev’s dropped off and the engine died. It would then take a good few seconds of turning over before she would start again. It then kept doing this whenever the clutch was engaged.

I have no idea what this could be. There are some hoses that have been blanked off as they don’t lead anywhere anymore. One of them is from the left bank (as you look at the engine) rocker cover. This doesn’t go anywhere and is blocked off. The breathers from the inlet manifolds don’t seem to go anywhere either.

Has anyone ever experienced this before with their 24v cosworth engines and do any of you kind folks have any suggestions on what might be the issue. I’m thinking it must be electrical as mechanically it seems sound. Any advice (with or without diagrams) would be great. The girlfriend and I are supposed to be going to a car show this weekend but at this rate I don’t know if I’ll make it or not. Will it damage the engine driving a 400 mile round trip (over two days) with this condition. ???

I hope with all the knowledge available here I can get it fixed. I look forward to hearing from you all.

Kind Regards,

George.

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Highlander on Aug 15^th, 2011, 2:28pm

Hi George,

Idle seems a bit high, is the idle control valve fitted the correct way round?

they can be fitted the wrong way which causes a higher hanging idle but don't know what it would do in a manual set up

this is the way it should be, (looking at it from the back of the engine)

Does it need cleaning?

http://i54.tinypic.com/20qe177.jpg

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Roundozo on Aug 15^th, 2011, 3:36pm

Hi,

Yeah its that way around. On the other side of the inlet manifold (at the front) connecting the two inlet manifolds together there is what looks like some sort of butterfly valve. This is not connected to anything but it looks like there should be some sort of cable allowing it to open and close. It that correct? I really cant think what it might be apart from maybe a dirty MAF sensor (got that from the help notes :) ). I’m also not too sure when the throttle body was cleaned as I’ve heard these can also cause problems? This is all very new for me unfortunately, I’m used to carb’d engines. A lot easier to work on but regrettably very thirsty.

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Highlander on Aug 15^th, 2011, 4:05pm

is this the part you mean? Section 11

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/engines/24v/24VEng&Trans.pdf

So just to clarify...

When you initially start it it idles high then drops down to 1000 rpm.

Does it or would it idle there if you left it ??

I assume when you initially put your foot on the clutch to move off the engine doesnt die at that point?

So once the car is moving and you press the clutch the engine dies?

Was there or is there cruise control fitted? and has this been wired to cut out when the clutch or brake pedal is depressed?

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Roundozo on Aug 15^th, 2011, 4:34pm

Ooooh good question. Yes you are right. When the car is started it idles high for a few seconds and then drops to 1000rpm. It will stay like this until I drive it. If I just put my foot on the clutch without moving and take it off again etc then the engine will stay running. Once the car is moving and I then press the clutch this is when she dies unless I rev it up but then I cant brake :(

No cruise control fitted but I don’t know if the car the engine came out of did. It’s a very strange one indeed. I’m going to clean out the MAF sensor tomorrow eve (need some carb cleaner) and hope that might help but struggling to find reasons for this.

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Highlander on Aug 15^th, 2011, 5:03pm

Will it stall the first time you press the clutch whilst moving? whether the engine is warm or cold?

Sounds like the engine load being removed by pressing the clutch is causing the problem.

So something that usually prevents it from stalling isn't working...

If you let the car slow right down whilst in gear so that the revs are low and there is little load can you then change gear without it stalling?

or try it while going downhill? lets the revs drop to idle speed then try the clutch?

is it wired to be in Neutral or 1st gear?

Do you have aircon or power steering fitted?

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Roundozo on Aug 15^th, 2011, 5:51pm

Just had a look at document. I don't have the speed control cable. Point 2 of section 11. I don't have a/c but do have p/s. It's very strange indeed. I'll test the speed idea tomorrow.

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Highlander on Aug 16^th, 2011, 9:21am

Do you have the Scorpio p/s with the speed sensitive rack?

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Dave2302 on Aug 16^th, 2011, 10:32am

Hi George,

It sounds to me from your OP like you have a lot of "Bad Install" issues, and I'm not having a go at you btw, these are vey complicated conversions to get right on your first go ;)

I will try and advise you ;) ...............

The revs always seem to hang up for a couple of seconds when starting and after blipping the throttle with BOB running BOA management............There is nothing wrong there, and it doesn't affect driveability, when the car is on the move...........

I have done at least 7 or 8 BOB's now in various different cars and they always do this ;)

Firstly, the 2 breather hoses should not be blocked, one should go from the rocker cover to the inlet manifold via a pcv valve and the other should go to the air filter.

The "butterfly" you refer to is the VIS valve and that is usually controlled from the BOB ECU via a vacuum valve, which connects to a vacuum actuator on the VIS itself.
It should open at 3000 - 3200 rpm, and stay open above this, then close when revs drop down below those figures.

They don't run nicely without it, and when using a BOA ECU you need to purchase an "MSD RPM Window Switch", to control the Vacuum Solenoid so ths operates correctly.

I doubt any of those are causing you stalling issues though, that is most likely one of the following :-

When using BOA ECU the Brake Light Switch must be connected to the ECU, so it knows when you are slowing down, and also the VSS needs to be connected...........If either of these are wrong or not connected then you will get a stalling condition when slowing down and pulling up ;)

Also when using BOA ECU you must also use BOA Air Flow Meter, because they don't run right on a BOB one !!

Hope this helps,

Regards Dave

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Roundozo on Aug 16^th, 2011, 12:14pm

on 08/16/11 at 10:32:09, Dave2302 wrote:

Thanks for the advice. You are right this has been very complicated indeed and I did have someone else install the wiring as I’m useless with electrics so maybe that’s the problem. When you say air flow meter do you mean the MAF? If so I believe this has been changed and is off of the BOA engine. This is connected to the plastic duct coming from the throttle body and then has a K&N filter connected to the other side of the MAF. There is a hose included in the K&N kit that at the moment has nowhere to go either….

As for the breather hoses (and yes they are blocked), as I’m looking at the engine from the front of the car the hose coming off of the left rocker cover (oil filler cap side) should go??????……and the right should go…….???????

Now this break light switch may also be the issue. How would I be able to tell if its in place or not? The ECU has been installed under the dash and is easy to get to so I can look. Would it be a simple case of connecting a wire to the brake light wire so that when the brake peddle is pushed the wire will transmit a signal back to the ECU???

I am not running the original auto box but a strengthened manual type 9 ford box so I don’t think it would be possible to connect the VSS (I presume that’s the gearbox Vehicle Speed Sensor). Is this going to be a terminal issue or can I get around this? There is a sensor on the bottom front fly wheel (below water pump) but I presume that’s not this?

The VIS valve is connected to nothing and so therefore wont be functioning correctly so I presume I need this MSD RPM window switch (looks expensive :( )

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Roundozo on Aug 16^th, 2011, 12:50pm

on 08/16/11 at 09:21:21, Highlander wrote:

Do you have the Scorpio p/s with the speed sensitive rack?

I am using the powersteering rack from the Cortina but powering it with the scorpio pump.

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Dave2302 on Aug 16^th, 2011, 2:16pm

Hi George,

Drivers side (RHD, oil filler side,) rocker cover breather goes to air filter, passenger side rocker cover goes to a plastic T under the inlet manifold, which connects to the manifold, but you may not need the T if you're not running EGR etc.

MAF is Air Flow Meter yes, sounds like you've got the right one if you've fitted the BOA one ;)

Your power steering sounds fine to me, that's what I do with conversions, you only need a pressure switch connected if using a BOB ECU and Rack, can connect one to BOA ECU but only needed if it stalls turning the steering lock to lock, I've found they don't usually ;)

Brake light switch connects to ECU with one wire so when brakes are on a + goes to ECU, sorry but I can't remember which pin, there is a BOA wiring diagram on "FordPower" website, I'm a bit busy right now but will look it up in the morning on my own diagram if you can't find it.

VSS is on the gearbox yes, there are adaptors available to fit it as well as a speedo cable, but it is just as important as the Brake On / Off wire, still should be connected though ;)

The RPM switch is around £140 - £170, but the only other way to do it is use Emerald or Megasquirt Management etc which are much dearer ;)
VIS does need connecting because it varies the effective intake length so you get good low down power and then as it switches around 3000 rpm it makes the top end better, engine will not run correctly without it ;)

Regards Dave

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Roundozo on Aug 16^th, 2011, 3:07pm

Hi Dave,

Ok, so the RHD pipe goes to the K&N filter and the LHD goes onto a plastic T (think mine does this and sends two little pipes to the inlet manifolds, either side). So if I don’t need this, it could be blocked off? Also my T-piece looks a bit broken, I presume it’s a good idea to replace this to stop unwanted air entering/escaping? Hopefully Halfords will have something that’ll fit.

There is another pipe coming out of the LHD inlet manifold going to my brake cylinder, is that correct??? I couldn’t think of a reason for this?

Glad I’ve got the MAF meter, sorted.

Power steering is fine too, lock to lock no engine stall

I will have a look at the “FordPower” website to see if I can work out what I’m going to do with regards to this brake on/off system as that sounds like it’s the main suspect of the stalling issue.

I think I would just get the switch as it’s a cheaper option (not very rich unfortunately). Have found some on ebay from America for £90 including p&p. this one;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MSD-8956-Window-RPM-Activated-Switch-/200623162386?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2eb6128412

I presume I would need some sort of mechanical mechanism though as currently the VIS has nothing connected to it apart from its leaver or is that electronically controlled?

Thanks so much for the help Dave and I wish I could drive the car up to you to have a look but it looks to be a little far in all honesty (I live on the south coast). I really appreciate this help as otherwise I would be stuck down a creak without a boat let alone a paddle!

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Roundozo on Aug 16^th, 2011, 3:25pm

Just checked a pic on engine. Deffinately not running EGR if that helps. Here's a pic of the engine in the cortina. I have replaced the water pump and bypass hose by the time this was taken. Sorry its a phone pic and done at night. I'll get some more tomorrow.

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/8296/vacupip.png
http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/2787/newengineq.jpg

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Roundozo on Aug 16^th, 2011, 7:40pm

Right well I've connected the Driver's side hose to the k&n. Driving the car it turns out highlander is right if I slow right down nearly to a stop and then put the clutch in just before it stalls then the engine won't die as often. That mean chaps i think your both on the same wavelength. I think it is that brake on/off controller. Just found a fuel leak though so all efforts on that tonight. Fuel these days is worth its weight in gold and the safety implications too. I look forward to your replies Dave and highlander. George.

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Dave2302 on Aug 16^th, 2011, 8:21pm

Hi George,

No mate that switch you're looking at needs another module, this is what you need :-

http://www.msdignition.com/Products/RPM/Timing_Controls/RPM_Controls/8969_-_Digital_RPM_Window_Switch.aspx

Then you need a vacuum solenoid valve, and there is a vacuum actuator that should be on the VIS Valve, RPM Switch should be set to switch on at 3000 - 3200 rpm, so Vacuum Solenoid sends a vacuum to Vacuum VIS Actuator to open the VIS Valve

Your pipe to the brake servo is a vacuum one and should be there.

Broken T piece is a no no, it is an air leak which upsets the well being of the engine.

LH cam cover breather must be connected, do not block any breathers, bu you may be able to do away with the T, just connect the breather direct to the intake manifold.

Sorry, can't make out your picture very well, but the 2 small hoses circled in blue I think are balance ppes between Left and Right inake, and should be there..............

Remember though, this is all from memory, it is ages since I had the manifold off a BOB ;)

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Dave2302 on Aug 17^th, 2011, 10:22am

Hey George,

I had a look at my diagam this morning, it is pin 2 at the ECU that goes to Brake Light 'on' side of Brake Switch ;)

Take a look at this..............

Exactly your problem, and exactly what I said will cure it,
Brake Switch and VSS signal ;)

http://www.fordpower.org.uk/forum2/index.php/topic,9079.0.html

Cheers Dave

P.S.

Stuart "Highlander" may well be able to help you with the Vac Solenoid and Actuator for the VIS, they are standard 24V parts, and he has been known to break the odd Scorpio ;D

D

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Roundozo on Aug 17^th, 2011, 3:41pm

on 08/17/11 at 10:22:17, Dave2302 wrote:

Highlander is this true??? If so i would be very interested! I shall send you a PM too!

Thanks for all this help!!! :)

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Roundozo on Aug 17^th, 2011, 4:22pm

Please correct me if I’m wrong.

So I can get a wire, put it into pin 2 on the ECU and connect the other end to the live “brake lights on” wire and that’ll sort that? I presume there is a switch under the brake peddle that turns the brake lights on when its depressed. Does it need a return wire or anything?

If that’s the case then that looks to be simple enough (he says).

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Dave2302 on Aug 17^th, 2011, 7:47pm

That's correct Brake on +ve to pin 2 at ECU, no return wire, switch is on pedal I beleive on the Cortina, Simples ;D

The VSS will need doing to as that is part of the problem..............Have a read of the link I posted for you ;)

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Mike H on Aug 18^th, 2011, 1:23pm

This topic made me go and Google search for "frequency sensitive switches" ;D

Where does the RPM switch get its input signal from? And how many pulses per minute @ 3,000 rpm?

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Dave2302 on Aug 19^th, 2011, 7:14am

RPM is sensed by the Crank Position Sensor on the front pulley, one missing tooth gives the raw signal, so @ 3000rpm = 3000 pulses to ECU ;)

However, the MSD RPM Window Switch takes its input from EDIS coil pack, so @ 3000rpm = 1000 pulses on wasted spark like EDIS ;)

It is programmable for different ignition systems ;)

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Mike H on Aug 19^th, 2011, 1:53pm

Fairy nuff! I was just idly thinking about doing a LTspice simulation for an analogue version, see if it can be made to work

NB: 1,000 r.p.m. corresponds to 16.66 cycles (pulses) per second. The pulse time will be very short as well won't it? I'm guessing

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Dave2302 on Aug 20^th, 2011, 1:02pm

on 08/19/11 at 13:53:44, Mike H wrote:

NB: 1,000 r.p.m. corresponds to 16.66 cycles (pulses) per second. The pulse time will be very short as well won't it? I'm guessing

Hi Mike,

I'm not "brain fresh" atm, been working ghosters lol, but.................

If we is talking EDIS here, on a 6 cylinder, at 1000 rpm, one pair of coils will fire 333.3 rec times per minute, divided by 60 (seconds) = 5.55 pulses per second, so at 3000 rpm = 16.6 rec pulses per second, I guess that is what you are saying ;) .................

I think the pulses wll be m/sec and depend on the "collapse" time of the EDIS ignition coil pack ;)

Having found the MSD unit very user friendly, so although emulation can be done, I think I'd stick to buying the unit.

Also you can adjust the exact VIS opening and closing point, I beleive as standard it is exactly 3000 rpm, but we have found better results setting it to open at 3250 rpm, this seems to eliminate that slight flat spot the BOB has at 3000 rpm ;)

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: Engine cuts out on clutch
Post by Mike H on Aug 21^st, 2011, 6:12pm

on 08/20/11 at 13:02:36, Dave2302 wrote:

I think the pulses wll be m/sec and depend on the "collapse" time of the EDIS ignition coil pack ;)

Yes problee a couple of milliseconds then ;D